And yet Sony's movies use the same DRM as HD DVD movies (AACS).
Except that AACS is required for Blu-Ray and optional for HD DVD. And Blu-Ray further allows for BD+, which is even more DRM. You can't argue this one, Blu-Ray has more DRM than HD DVD, and it will be more difficult to backup, or rip to media servers than HD DVD.
The inserts from Circuit City and Best Buy in today's paper had a buy 3 get 2 free offer. CC's offer looked to feature 14 titles while BB's was a little unclear, it showed 7 or 8 titles but the text seemed to imply that all HD-DVDs were eligible.
So far I haven't been too impressed with the BD BOGO offers as the lists have been too restrictive. I can find one that I'd be interested in but not a second title.
Except that AACS is required for Blu-Ray and optional for HD DVD. And Blu-Ray further allows for BD+, which is even more DRM. You can't argue this one, Blu-Ray has more DRM than HD DVD, and it will be more difficult to backup, or rip to media servers than HD DVD.
We we're talking about Sony Pictures specifically and they don't use BD+.
We we're talking about Sony Pictures specifically and they don't use BD+.
And here I thought we were discussing Blu-Ray vs HD DVD. What is the purpose of picking one studio out of the lot when Frank was talking about the format as a whole. Plus, BD+ just became available recently (last few months). I would expect to see more and more Blu-Ray films to use it as time goes on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL
But managed copy is part of both specs btw.
This is true, but who knows what it means. For all we know it could mean iPod sized 320x240 backups allowed. I want full 1080p or 720p rips for my home media server. Plus this "feature" could go the way of many of the promised DVD features we never saw. I am not holding my breath.
I don't understand this. It is clear that in the not-too-distant future, home media servers will hold movies and music and pipe them on demand into any TV in the house.
It makes far more sense to say that the movie collection should be stored on a hard drive, and the optical format is the backup.
I prefer this myself.I hate clutter and not having to worry about boxes everywhere appeals to me. If cds were downloadable in lossless I would never buy another hard copy again. With my Nano and Tomahawk portable amp and my laptop as my musical sources I only use the cd once to rip it. They just sit in there cases the rest of the time.
I have most of my movies ripped to an external hard drive. I drag them in my laptop when I want to watch them as I travel.
The thing I'm most excited about in upconversion is not dvd conversion (although it's great when you have your old movies) but the streaming type like Apple TV or my Xbox360. Just last night I streamed an avi version of the first Aliens vs Predator movie to my plasma tv using Connect 360 on my macbook. I was shocked at how good my Xbox360 made it look. HD steaming would be fantastic.
Upconversion is a big reason why people don't see the need to gamble and pick a side in this unresolved format war. A regular dvd can look pretty damn good with very cheap equipment.
Except that AACS is required for Blu-Ray and optional for HD DVD. And Blu-Ray further allows for BD+, which is even more DRM. You can't argue this one, Blu-Ray has more DRM than HD DVD, and it will be more difficult to backup, or rip to media servers than HD DVD.
??? AACS is the standard that is on both HD DVD and Blu-ray. I haven't read anywhere where AACS is required for Blu-ray and optional for HD DVD. Could you please provide evidence of your claim? According to my knowledge, AACS, while not required per se, in terms of playback on either format, is standard on both HD DVD and Blu-ray per the specification for each standard.
I'm not arguing that Blu-ray has an extra layer of DRM in BD+, but it should be noted that Frank mentioned Sony specifically, who has yet to implement BD+ at all. Fox is the only studio thus far to implement BD+.
As far as coming to the conclusion that it will be more difficult to backup, I'd say that is false. It maybe more difficult in terms of engineers working with Managed Copy and BD+ to implement backups, or managed copies, but to the end consumer, backup or managed copies will be identical on Blu-ray or HD DVD.
In terms of being more difficult to "rip"...yeah its going to be more difficult to rip, as this is illegal, and that is the whole point of DRM...to prevent pirating (a.k.a. "ripping").
??? AACS is the standard that is on both HD DVD and Blu-ray. I haven't read anywhere where AACS is required for Blu-ray and optional for HD DVD. Could you please provide evidence of your claim? According to my knowledge, AACS, while not required per se, in terms of playback on either format, is standard on both HD DVD and Blu-ray per the specification for each standard.
I'm not arguing that Blu-ray has an extra layer of DRM in BD+, but it should be noted that Frank mentioned Sony specifically, who has yet to implement BD+ at all. Fox is the only studio thus far to implement BD+.
As far as coming to the conclusion that it will be more difficult to backup, I'd say that is false. It maybe more difficult in terms of engineers working with Managed Copy and BD+ to implement backups, or managed copies, but to the end consumer, backup or managed copies will be identical on Blu-ray or HD DVD.
In terms of being more difficult to "rip"...yeah its going to be more difficult to rip, as this is illegal, and that is the whole point of DRM...to prevent pirating (a.k.a. "ripping").
I don't see what the fuss is all about. I thought these formats were completely cracked a long time ago.
HD DVD and Blu-ray Now Completely Hacked, Cracked, Sacked
The guys at the Doom 9 forum are marking February 11, 2007 as the day when digital rights management was defeated on Blu-ray and HD DVD discs. It turns out that cracking the high definition disc formats was much easier than was originally thought. The processing key that can unravel the DRM on all HD DVD and Blu-ray discs has been found by a clever encryption fighter named arnezami.
It gets better:
The first-reported cracks for HD DVD and Blu-ray discs were not completely effective, because each individual title had secret codes that were needed to unravel the rest of the encryption on that disc. But now this newly-found processing key is apparently the holy grail that unlocks the DRM on all HD DVD and Blu-ray discs released so far. The guy found it by simply watching his computer memory, where the secret code—which we won't publish here for fear of doing jail time—simply appeared. Incredible. Let the free downloads begin! –
??? AACS is the standard that is on both HD DVD and Blu-ray. I haven't read anywhere where AACS is required for Blu-ray and optional for HD DVD. Could you please provide evidence of your claim? According to my knowledge, AACS, while not required per se, in terms of playback on either format, is standard on both HD DVD and Blu-ray per the specification for each standard.
I can't find the specific article now, but it was from a maker of a movie Chronos where on HD DVD he was able to produce the disk with no AACS, but on Blu-Ray he was required to include AACS. Here is a link toa forum post mentioning in: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...9&postcount=82
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7
I'm not arguing that Blu-ray has an extra layer of DRM in BD+, but it should be noted that Frank mentioned Sony specifically, who has yet to implement BD+ at all. Fox is the only studio thus far to implement BD+.
Re-reading Franks post, he does mention Sony, but I think he was refering to the more general Blu-Ray as a whole. We need him to respond back if he meant only Sony locking down their content, or Blu-Ray backers as a whole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7
As far as coming to the conclusion that it will be more difficult to backup, I'd say that is false. It maybe more difficult in terms of engineers working with Managed Copy and BD+ to implement backups, or managed copies, but to the end consumer, backup or managed copies will be identical on Blu-ray or HD DVD.
I am sure they will be identical on both platforms, but what is it that it will be? I am sure it will be something locked down, only playable on certain devices. Maybe even a limited number of times before you have to resync your disk to prove ownership? Who knows, but I can guarantee it wont be nice and simple to get the content where I want it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marzetta7
In terms of being more difficult to "rip"...yeah its going to be more difficult to rip, as this is illegal, and that is the whole point of DRM...to prevent pirating (a.k.a. "ripping").
Ripping != pirating (that is, unless you work for the RIAA/MPAA) Let me guess, you've never ripped a CD into MP3s in iTunes? You don't have an iPod (or other MP3 player) filled with music?
I don't want to rip to share (aka pirate), I want to rip so I have control over the quality of the content on my device. So I can rip to my home media server, or my iPhone, or my iPod, or my tablet, or whatever future device comes out that I haven't thought of yet. HD DVD allows me to do this currently. Blu-Ray does as well, but not on all titles. As time marches on, Blu-Ray has BD+ and RomMark coming down the pipe to help further lock down content. HD DVD has nothing else to lock us down with. I am for freedom, and HD DVD while not totally free, is the most free.
And here I thought we were discussing Blu-Ray vs HD DVD. What is the purpose of picking one studio out of the lot when Frank was talking about the format as a whole.
"Sony will do their best to lock up their content"
Quote:
Originally Posted by kupan787
Plus, BD+ just became available recently (last few months). I would expect to see more and more Blu-Ray films to use it as time goes on.
Fact is that Fox is still the only studio expressing their interest in BD+
I really don't think it's going to be a problem. They cracked the two formats about 4 days after they were out last time. I don't see it as a BIG ISSUE.
I really don't think it's going to be a problem. They cracked the two formats about 4 days after they were out last time. I don't see it as a BIG ISSUE.
"Sony will do their best to lock up their content"
Given that SonyBMG is the only real holdout still advocating locking up audio content, I fully expect Sony Pictures to take a second look at BD+ the next time some study says that more consumers are ripping movies. Sony still hasn't learned its lesson in how to treat paying customers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLL
Fact is that Fox is still the only studio expressing their interest in BD+
Yes, I'm aware that BD+ is being promoted by Fox. I think the extra DRM sabotages the entire platform. I'm not entirely sure that companies won't follow Fox down this path later if BR wins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onlooker
I really don't think it's going to be a problem. They cracked the two formats about 4 days after they were out last time. I don't see it as a BIG ISSUE.
The issue is that after this tedious HDM war, media companies must learn that formats with complicated DRM schemes will die in favour of more open ones. Otherwise, this whole battle has been a wasted opportunity.
According to new numbers from NPD Group, just 11-percent of HDTV owners surveyed "strongly intend to buy a Blu-ray or HD DVD player by next spring," and moreover, nearly 75-percent of those consumers noted that standard DVD was "good enough for them."
As I've said before, I don't think Joe Consumer's buying in to HDM until he's in need of a new DVD player, walks into the store, and all they sell are HDM players that also happen to upconvert regular DVDs. Just like HDTVs, it's not catching on until it's the only thing you can buy.
Another week another loss for HD-DVD. According to the AVS forum Blu took another win for the week of the 23rd.
Nielsen contest results for 12/28/2007
Correct Nielsen/VideoScan ratio : 61:39
Same ratio as the week before. And apparently this brings us to 52 weeks of Blu trouncing HD-DVD.
Maybe next week HD-DVD will win? According to the HD-DVD camp wasn't there supposed to be a mad rush after Christmas for HD-DVD movies? You know due to all those tens of hundreds of HD-DVD players sold during the Walmart / Best Buy fire sales...
Another week another loss for HD-DVD. According to the AVS forum Blu took another win for the week of the 23rd.
Nielsen contest results for 12/28/2007
Correct Nielsen/VideoScan ratio : 61:39
Same ratio as the week before. And apparently this brings us to 52 weeks of Blu trouncing HD-DVD.
Maybe next week HD-DVD will win? According to the HD-DVD camp wasn't there supposed to be a mad rush after Christmas for HD-DVD movies? You know due to all those tens of hundreds of HD-DVD players sold during the Walmart / Best Buy fire sales...
What are you, Marzetta7's second account? As I say to him, this is not a presidential election; nobody goes home empty-handed, and the loser having a 39% of the sales means nobody is getting "trounced". The ratio of sales for both formats are roughly the same as they were last February; this "war" has gone nowhere.
What are you, Marzetta7's second account? As I say to him, this is not a presidential election; nobody goes home empty-handed, and the loser having a 39% of the sales means nobody is getting "trounced". The ratio of sales for both formats are roughly the same as they were last February; this "war" has gone nowhere.
Those are US #s. Japan has like 97% Blu-Ray Europe is also far more favored for Blu Ray than the US. Believe it. HD-DVD is getting trounced across the globe. The US has the highest percentage of HD-DVD, and it's minimal compared to Blu Ray.
Those are US #s. Japan has like 97% Blu-Ray Europe is also far more favored for Blu Ray than the US. Believe it. HD-DVD is getting trounced across the globe. The US has the highest percentage of HD-DVD, and it's minimal compared to Blu Ray.
Which hardly matters for the purposes of North American adoption. Europe and Asia have often had differing hardware formats, and many tech companies prefer it that way.
And even with HD-DVD's so-called "minimal" hardware adoption rate compared to Blu-Ray players, HD-DVD is still walking away with almost 40% of HDM sales.
Those are US #s. Japan has like 97% Blu-Ray Europe is also far more favored for Blu Ray than the US. Believe it. HD-DVD is getting trounced across the globe. The US has the highest percentage of HD-DVD, and it's minimal compared to Blu Ray.
I care as much about what Europe and Japan are watching as I do about VCDs and the PAL format.
The issue is that after this tedious HDM war, media companies must learn that formats with complicated DRM schemes will die in favour of more open ones. Otherwise, this whole battle has been a wasted opportunity.
I care as much about what Europe and Japan are watching as I do about VCDs and the PAL format.
Thats unfortunate for you then since the movie studios do need to care about what the rest of the world is using, since they'll be selling their movies in other territories than the US.
Comments
And yet Sony's movies use the same DRM as HD DVD movies (AACS).
Except that AACS is required for Blu-Ray and optional for HD DVD. And Blu-Ray further allows for BD+, which is even more DRM. You can't argue this one, Blu-Ray has more DRM than HD DVD, and it will be more difficult to backup, or rip to media servers than HD DVD.
So far I haven't been too impressed with the BD BOGO offers as the lists have been too restrictive. I can find one that I'd be interested in but not a second title.
Except that AACS is required for Blu-Ray and optional for HD DVD. And Blu-Ray further allows for BD+, which is even more DRM. You can't argue this one, Blu-Ray has more DRM than HD DVD, and it will be more difficult to backup, or rip to media servers than HD DVD.
We we're talking about Sony Pictures specifically and they don't use BD+.
But managed copy is part of both specs btw.
We we're talking about Sony Pictures specifically and they don't use BD+.
And here I thought we were discussing Blu-Ray vs HD DVD. What is the purpose of picking one studio out of the lot when Frank was talking about the format as a whole. Plus, BD+ just became available recently (last few months). I would expect to see more and more Blu-Ray films to use it as time goes on.
But managed copy is part of both specs btw.
This is true, but who knows what it means. For all we know it could mean iPod sized 320x240 backups allowed. I want full 1080p or 720p rips for my home media server. Plus this "feature" could go the way of many of the promised DVD features we never saw. I am not holding my breath.
I don't understand this. It is clear that in the not-too-distant future, home media servers will hold movies and music and pipe them on demand into any TV in the house.
It makes far more sense to say that the movie collection should be stored on a hard drive, and the optical format is the backup.
I prefer this myself.I hate clutter and not having to worry about boxes everywhere appeals to me. If cds were downloadable in lossless I would never buy another hard copy again. With my Nano and Tomahawk portable amp and my laptop as my musical sources I only use the cd once to rip it. They just sit in there cases the rest of the time.
I have most of my movies ripped to an external hard drive. I drag them in my laptop when I want to watch them as I travel.
The thing I'm most excited about in upconversion is not dvd conversion (although it's great when you have your old movies) but the streaming type like Apple TV or my Xbox360. Just last night I streamed an avi version of the first Aliens vs Predator movie to my plasma tv using Connect 360 on my macbook. I was shocked at how good my Xbox360 made it look. HD steaming would be fantastic.
Upconversion is a big reason why people don't see the need to gamble and pick a side in this unresolved format war. A regular dvd can look pretty damn good with very cheap equipment.
Except that AACS is required for Blu-Ray and optional for HD DVD. And Blu-Ray further allows for BD+, which is even more DRM. You can't argue this one, Blu-Ray has more DRM than HD DVD, and it will be more difficult to backup, or rip to media servers than HD DVD.
???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...Content_System
I'm not arguing that Blu-ray has an extra layer of DRM in BD+, but it should be noted that Frank mentioned Sony specifically, who has yet to implement BD+ at all. Fox is the only studio thus far to implement BD+.
As far as coming to the conclusion that it will be more difficult to backup, I'd say that is false. It maybe more difficult in terms of engineers working with Managed Copy and BD+ to implement backups, or managed copies, but to the end consumer, backup or managed copies will be identical on Blu-ray or HD DVD.
In terms of being more difficult to "rip"...yeah its going to be more difficult to rip, as this is illegal, and that is the whole point of DRM...to prevent pirating (a.k.a. "ripping").
???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...Content_System
I'm not arguing that Blu-ray has an extra layer of DRM in BD+, but it should be noted that Frank mentioned Sony specifically, who has yet to implement BD+ at all. Fox is the only studio thus far to implement BD+.
As far as coming to the conclusion that it will be more difficult to backup, I'd say that is false. It maybe more difficult in terms of engineers working with Managed Copy and BD+ to implement backups, or managed copies, but to the end consumer, backup or managed copies will be identical on Blu-ray or HD DVD.
In terms of being more difficult to "rip"...yeah its going to be more difficult to rip, as this is illegal, and that is the whole point of DRM...to prevent pirating (a.k.a. "ripping").
I don't see what the fuss is all about. I thought these formats were completely cracked a long time ago.
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-ente...ked-236213.php
HD DVD and Blu-ray Now Completely Hacked, Cracked, Sacked
The guys at the Doom 9 forum are marking February 11, 2007 as the day when digital rights management was defeated on Blu-ray and HD DVD discs. It turns out that cracking the high definition disc formats was much easier than was originally thought. The processing key that can unravel the DRM on all HD DVD and Blu-ray discs has been found by a clever encryption fighter named arnezami.
It gets better:
The first-reported cracks for HD DVD and Blu-ray discs were not completely effective, because each individual title had secret codes that were needed to unravel the rest of the encryption on that disc. But now this newly-found processing key is apparently the holy grail that unlocks the DRM on all HD DVD and Blu-ray discs released so far. The guy found it by simply watching his computer memory, where the secret code—which we won't publish here for fear of doing jail time—simply appeared. Incredible. Let the free downloads begin! –
???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advance...Content_System.
I can't find the specific article now, but it was from a maker of a movie Chronos where on HD DVD he was able to produce the disk with no AACS, but on Blu-Ray he was required to include AACS. Here is a link toa forum post mentioning in: http://forum.doom9.org/showpost.php?...9&postcount=82
I'm not arguing that Blu-ray has an extra layer of DRM in BD+, but it should be noted that Frank mentioned Sony specifically, who has yet to implement BD+ at all. Fox is the only studio thus far to implement BD+.
Re-reading Franks post, he does mention Sony, but I think he was refering to the more general Blu-Ray as a whole. We need him to respond back if he meant only Sony locking down their content, or Blu-Ray backers as a whole.
As far as coming to the conclusion that it will be more difficult to backup, I'd say that is false. It maybe more difficult in terms of engineers working with Managed Copy and BD+ to implement backups, or managed copies, but to the end consumer, backup or managed copies will be identical on Blu-ray or HD DVD.
I am sure they will be identical on both platforms, but what is it that it will be? I am sure it will be something locked down, only playable on certain devices. Maybe even a limited number of times before you have to resync your disk to prove ownership? Who knows, but I can guarantee it wont be nice and simple to get the content where I want it.
In terms of being more difficult to "rip"...yeah its going to be more difficult to rip, as this is illegal, and that is the whole point of DRM...to prevent pirating (a.k.a. "ripping").
Ripping != pirating (that is, unless you work for the RIAA/MPAA) Let me guess, you've never ripped a CD into MP3s in iTunes? You don't have an iPod (or other MP3 player) filled with music?
I don't want to rip to share (aka pirate), I want to rip so I have control over the quality of the content on my device. So I can rip to my home media server, or my iPhone, or my iPod, or my tablet, or whatever future device comes out that I haven't thought of yet. HD DVD allows me to do this currently. Blu-Ray does as well, but not on all titles. As time marches on, Blu-Ray has BD+ and RomMark coming down the pipe to help further lock down content. HD DVD has nothing else to lock us down with. I am for freedom, and HD DVD while not totally free, is the most free.
And here I thought we were discussing Blu-Ray vs HD DVD. What is the purpose of picking one studio out of the lot when Frank was talking about the format as a whole.
"Sony will do their best to lock up their content"
Plus, BD+ just became available recently (last few months). I would expect to see more and more Blu-Ray films to use it as time goes on.
Fact is that Fox is still the only studio expressing their interest in BD+
I really don't think it's going to be a problem. They cracked the two formats about 4 days after they were out last time. I don't see it as a BIG ISSUE.
Hear Hear
"Sony will do their best to lock up their content"
Given that SonyBMG is the only real holdout still advocating locking up audio content, I fully expect Sony Pictures to take a second look at BD+ the next time some study says that more consumers are ripping movies. Sony still hasn't learned its lesson in how to treat paying customers.
Fact is that Fox is still the only studio expressing their interest in BD+
Yes, I'm aware that BD+ is being promoted by Fox. I think the extra DRM sabotages the entire platform. I'm not entirely sure that companies won't follow Fox down this path later if BR wins.
I really don't think it's going to be a problem. They cracked the two formats about 4 days after they were out last time. I don't see it as a BIG ISSUE.
The issue is that after this tedious HDM war, media companies must learn that formats with complicated DRM schemes will die in favour of more open ones. Otherwise, this whole battle has been a wasted opportunity.
According to new numbers from NPD Group, just 11-percent of HDTV owners surveyed "strongly intend to buy a Blu-ray or HD DVD player by next spring," and moreover, nearly 75-percent of those consumers noted that standard DVD was "good enough for them."
As I've said before, I don't think Joe Consumer's buying in to HDM until he's in need of a new DVD player, walks into the store, and all they sell are HDM players that also happen to upconvert regular DVDs. Just like HDTVs, it's not catching on until it's the only thing you can buy.
Nielsen contest results for 12/28/2007
Correct Nielsen/VideoScan ratio : 61:39
Same ratio as the week before. And apparently this brings us to 52 weeks of Blu trouncing HD-DVD.
Maybe next week HD-DVD will win? According to the HD-DVD camp wasn't there supposed to be a mad rush after Christmas for HD-DVD movies? You know due to all those tens of hundreds of HD-DVD players sold during the Walmart / Best Buy fire sales...
Another week another loss for HD-DVD. According to the AVS forum Blu took another win for the week of the 23rd.
Nielsen contest results for 12/28/2007
Correct Nielsen/VideoScan ratio : 61:39
Same ratio as the week before. And apparently this brings us to 52 weeks of Blu trouncing HD-DVD.
Maybe next week HD-DVD will win? According to the HD-DVD camp wasn't there supposed to be a mad rush after Christmas for HD-DVD movies? You know due to all those tens of hundreds of HD-DVD players sold during the Walmart / Best Buy fire sales...
What are you, Marzetta7's second account? As I say to him, this is not a presidential election; nobody goes home empty-handed, and the loser having a 39% of the sales means nobody is getting "trounced". The ratio of sales for both formats are roughly the same as they were last February; this "war" has gone nowhere.
What are you, Marzetta7's second account? As I say to him, this is not a presidential election; nobody goes home empty-handed, and the loser having a 39% of the sales means nobody is getting "trounced". The ratio of sales for both formats are roughly the same as they were last February; this "war" has gone nowhere.
Those are US #s. Japan has like 97% Blu-Ray Europe is also far more favored for Blu Ray than the US. Believe it. HD-DVD is getting trounced across the globe. The US has the highest percentage of HD-DVD, and it's minimal compared to Blu Ray.
Those are US #s. Japan has like 97% Blu-Ray Europe is also far more favored for Blu Ray than the US. Believe it. HD-DVD is getting trounced across the globe. The US has the highest percentage of HD-DVD, and it's minimal compared to Blu Ray.
Which hardly matters for the purposes of North American adoption. Europe and Asia have often had differing hardware formats, and many tech companies prefer it that way.
And even with HD-DVD's so-called "minimal" hardware adoption rate compared to Blu-Ray players, HD-DVD is still walking away with almost 40% of HDM sales.
That is simply amazing.
Those are US #s. Japan has like 97% Blu-Ray Europe is also far more favored for Blu Ray than the US. Believe it. HD-DVD is getting trounced across the globe. The US has the highest percentage of HD-DVD, and it's minimal compared to Blu Ray.
I care as much about what Europe and Japan are watching as I do about VCDs and the PAL format.
The issue is that after this tedious HDM war, media companies must learn that formats with complicated DRM schemes will die in favour of more open ones. Otherwise, this whole battle has been a wasted opportunity.
It really doesn't look that way so far.
I care as much about what Europe and Japan are watching as I do about VCDs and the PAL format.
Thats unfortunate for you then since the movie studios do need to care about what the rest of the world is using, since they'll be selling their movies in other territories than the US.