Have you seen the latest Orange France stats yet? They only sold 20,000 in January. 20,000 in one of Europe's biggest countries.
Ugh. That's even bleaker when you consider that mobile phone penetration in most European nations is quite a bit higher than it is in the US.
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I was explicitly bitching about the 2G phone chip but add the shitty camera.
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I agree but in this case the iPhone has those features - ie. a radio chip and a camera - they're just poor implementations for such an expensive phone.
IYO Aegis, is it fair to say that, for the price, your average Euro customer expects 3G and either a 3.2 or a 5.0 megapixel camera?
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No, I was asking Teno when he expects them to aggressively update the iPhone and he was suggesting 'sometime before the end of the year'. I agree with you - it'll have to be soon.
I think Apple would be very foolish to wait until the end of the year to update the iPhone in a major way. The Asian launch and good Euro sales practically require an iPhone 2.0... that's where we're at, and I'm sure Apple is aware of it. The capacity update is great as far as it goes, but by itself, is more of a stopgap than anything else.
Depends where you are. In the US, you'd be correct to say that WM and Palm are a significant force, at least in sales. But elsewhere in the world, it seems to be all about Symbian and their 70-75% worldwide marketshare in smartphones.
I was only talking about the US.
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You gotta understand, the Euros will naturally tend to have a very different view than Americans on something like this. WM and Palm are a bit of a joke to them because WM and Palm aren't that successful outside of the US.
Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.
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Therefore, on the iPhone, 3G would definitely be used, and the iPhone's browser share should explode. Win-win, wouldn't you say.
I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.
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No, I think he's simply seeing it through a Euro consumer's eyes.
"I am European and I find the iPhone to be a simply astonishing device. I use it constantly, not because it is crammed with features, but because unlike Nokia's devices, its features actually work. That functionality makes it more valuable to me. "
Carniphage, Sheffield England
"I, like many iPhone users have found this is the first phone where I have explored 'every' feature on the device and when more features are added i'll have already learnt the device inside out so I'll get to know all of the new features in depth too. It's one of those things Apple have always done right. They understand the balance between functionality and clutter. The balance between Form and Function."
Dazabrit, UK
"All in all a stunningly beautiful and "truly revolutionary" handheld device (it's not just a phone) with a few very noticable but very fixable oversights.I have to admit it, it's hard not to love the iPhone once you have really used it.
I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G.
I find it interesting how many articles said something like
"Wow, how did they get it so small and sleek"
followed immediately by "Pity it's not 3G".
And very few articles really put the 2 together. I mean, it's a no brainer to want a 3G iPhone but with the same size and battery life as the current iPhone... I'd love one.
So - if Apple had released a 3G version side by side with their 2G version.... even the same price... and the 3G was 50% thicker and twice the weight (bigger battery squeezed in), which would you have chosen?
So - if Apple had released a 3G version side by side with their 2G version.... even the same price... and the 3G was 50% thicker and twice the weight (bigger battery squeezed in), which would you have chosen?
'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.
Look around... there's plenty of 3G smartphones out that are nearly as thin as the iPhone, and weigh about the same. Take the Samsung Blackjack II, for instance:
Blackjack II: (3G smartphone)
Weight\t 4.09 oz (116 g)
Dimensions\t 4.48" x 2.39" x 0.51"
iPhone:
Weight\t 4.8 oz (136 g)
Dimensions\t 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.46"
So, let's see... the Blackjack II is actually quite a bit lighter than the iPhone, is marginally shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and is only about 10% thicker. And has 3G.
Before you go, "Well, what about battery life?", the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time, nearly as good as the iPhone. And it actually has more standby time... 336 hours vs 250 for the iPhone.
What ppl don't seem to get is that the 3G chipsets are getting better all the time in regards to things like power consumption, weight, and size. The 3G iPhone, when it arrives, certainly will not be a tank.
In that case, I would agree with you. But you do understand why the Euros do not see WM and Palm as being particularly strong competition. In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they're not.
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Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.
The majority of Euro postings to date seem to be closer to Aegis' point of view on most things iPhone-related than your own. I don't think this is really news to you.
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I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.
What you seem to willfully ignore at every turn, though, is the fact that the iPhone's data use would be much more 'wildly successful' still if it had 3G.
Again, its all about user experience... Safari is a great first step, but you need to mate it to a decent data connection. GPRS isn't it, and thats what many Euros are stuck with if they're mobile and do not have a 3G-capable phone. And those Euros have been voting with their pocketbooks.
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"I am European and I find the iPhone to be a simply astonishing device. I use it constantly, not because it is crammed with features, but because unlike Nokia's devices, its features actually work. That functionality makes it more valuable to me. "
etc. etc.
That's great Teno, but I'm sure if I had the time and desire, I could dig up five times more quotes that generally agree with aegis and disagree with you.
And of course, we have the slow Euro sales to back that up.
I'm sure that many Euro consumers do find things in the iPhone to admire, but unfortunately, those things haven't been compelling enough to make many Euro consumers overlook the iPhone's weaknesses and/or price.
Yeah but they didn't raise the price, they just didn't lower it. Existing model is the same price, you said they rose the price.. they didn't, they merely added a more expensive "newer" model.
I was referring to the biggest one, cause that's the only one I'd get. So the price for the biggest size rose 100 bucks, but w/e, not like it matters, I'll wait til the 32 GB is cheaper
On the other hand, if they were selling the 32 GB for 399, I'd be in for one now , but I can wait, cause it seems like you're always waiting with Apple
Come on Aegis you are going way out of way reaching for criticism. Bug fixes are when something doesn't work correctly. So far the major functions on the iPhone have worked fine.
Much of the new functionality wasn't even available when the iPhone was first introduced.
I don't think I am reaching but perhaps you can remind me what 'major functionality' they've added. Or what you mean by not existing when the phone was first introduced other than a custom YouTube client and iTunes in Starbucks?
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Yeah ToDo's is absolutely required of any phone...
Of any smartphone, yes, I think it is. A fully implemented PIM is one of the cornerstones of smartphone-ness. YouTube isn't.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
I wouldn't call the entrenched Windows Mobile and Palm "no competition."
So you're saying Windows and Palm are actually pretty good?
The US market is basically Windows Mobile, Palm and RIM. RIM have done well to get where Palm should have been. Windows has just been shit all along. Symbian for whatever reason doesn't feature in the USA, largely because of your phone standards and reluctance from carriers to take Nokia's handsets it seems. I don't understand quite why exactly. There's cultural differences with candybars v flips (Here flip phones are for teens and chavs). However, it's resulted in a US market for smartphones that was only about 10% of the world's market..... until Apple came along and educated the USA as to why smartphones are cool. Couple it with some good marketing and persuading a carrier to not be such an arse and they have a hit there.
That's how I see it, and why Apple are successful in the USA and why I said it was low-hanging fruit.
In Europe, it's different. The phone hardware was a bit last year already, the software missing features we use more here, the carrier tariffs very high (though O2 have fixed that now) and the initial handset price astronomical. We've much more choice in handsets, carriers and tariffs. We've higher expectations in hardware features regardless of how nice the UI is.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Penetration of smartphones in Europe may have happened faster than in the US. But actual use of them beyond phone calls and texting has been no faster.
Really? Prove it. And I don't mean by browser share. That's not the only thing you use smartphones for.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
You are talking in specs and theory. But in actual practice the iPhone in 8 months has captured .13% of the worlds browser share, more than any other phone. What good is the 3G in many other phones if it is rarely used?
For when you actually want fast data ?
It's not 3G that is stopping browser usage on the other phones, it's the poor browsers and until last year at least, the tariffs. That's all changed recently.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Instead of buying the phone that meets your needs and enjoying life, you seem comfortable just to bitch about everything in regards to the iPhone in general.
I'm an Apple fan. I'm disappointed that the 4 year old SE P910i I've already got is a better smartphone than Apple's new phone for me. Do you not think that's a sad situation to be in?
The SDK may fix that though if 3rd party developers add the features that I want in a phone that are currently missing from the iPhone.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Well what other phone would sell 20,000 units on one carrier at 339 Euros with a 49 Euro tariff? Bringing new customers to its carrier.
There's two answers there...
1) Nokia managed to sell over 18 million smartphones in the quarter.
2) It shows there's a problem with the pricing or the product when it's not selling well.
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Originally Posted by TBaggins
Ugh. That's even bleaker when you consider that mobile phone penetration in most European nations is quite a bit higher than it is in the US.
And our smartphone market is much bigger than the USA although ours only grew at 50-something percent and the USA grew at 222 percent, largely because of RIM and Apple.
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Originally Posted by TBaggins
IYO Aegis, is it fair to say that, for the price, your average Euro customer expects 3G and either a 3.2 or a 5.0 megapixel camera?
Yes, I'd say so although the iPhone is pretty much priced way above anyone other than maybe the expensive fashion Nokias and Vertu phones. N95 8GB, HTC Tytans and Viewtys can be had for free now.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.
The sales figures speak for themselves really. I'm only trying to explain them by giving you context.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.
It's entirely down to good browser software and the fact you're tied to a data plan, even if you're stuck on GPRS/EDGE. That's not usually the case with other phones. IME heavy 3G users use it by tethering their phone to a laptop too.
'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.
Look around... there's plenty of 3G smartphones out that are nearly as thin as the iPhone, and weigh about the same. Take the Samsung Blackjack II, for instance:
Before you go, "Well, what about battery life?", the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time, nearly as good as the iPhone. And it actually has more standby time... 336 hours vs 250 for the iPhone.
What ppl don't seem to get is that the 3G chipsets are getting better all the time in regards to things like power consumption, weight, and size. The 3G iPhone, when it arrives, certainly will not be a tank..
That is what Steve has been saying from the beginning.
But we must keep in mind, that talking on a phone is not the issue. Using the phone more, like watching movies is going to eat into available talk time. Using a phone for surfing the net more is going to eat into available talk time. Just using a phone more is going to eat into available talk time. And let's face it, all those things, they way you can do it and how you can do it is going to eat into available talk time.
More important, until the technology improves, 3g will just make you use your iPhone more. And if after everything else, the one thing you don't want to happen is not have enough available talk time when you need to use your phone to phone.
But you do understand why the Euros do not see WM and Palm as being particularly strong competition. In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they're not.
The same as Sony/Ericson and Nokia aren't strong competition in the US. But WM and Palm were more entrenched in the US.
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The majority of Euro postings to date seem to be closer to Aegis' point of view on most things iPhone-related than your own. I don't think this is really news to you.
I wouldn't say the majority. I think those are the ones who are most vocal. Their were several Euros who bought iPhones from the US and unlocked them before they were officially launched.
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What you seem to willfully ignore at every turn, though, is the fact that the iPhone's data use would be much more 'wildly successful' still if it had 3G.
What evidence do you have that this would happen? Certainly not based on current 3G data use.
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That's great Teno, but I'm sure if I had the time and desire, I could dig up five times more quotes that generally agree with aegis and disagree with you.
That's such linear thinking. My point was that Eruos are not homogeneous. Some like the iPhone, some don't care for it what it is now.
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I'm sure that many Euro consumers do find things in the iPhone to admire, but unfortunately, those things haven't been compelling enough to make many Euro consumers overlook the iPhone's weaknesses and/or price.
The 4 million in sales clearly shows their is a strong demand for the iPhone. Just not necessarily a strong demand for Orange, O2, or T-Mobile.
I don't think I am reaching but perhaps you can remind me what 'major functionality' they've added. Or what you mean by not existing when the phone was first introduced other than a custom YouTube client and iTunes in Starbucks?
Apple had to write the YouTube app and the mobile iTunes from scratch and they both worked fine from day one. You may not consider these major features. But I haven't seen YouTube or music downloads as sophisticated on any other phone.
The Maps app has been completely rewritten. Here is what I was specifically talking about. Google Locate Me and Skyhook location software were not available when the iPhone was released.
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Of any smartphone, yes, I think it is. A fully implemented PIM is one of the cornerstones of smartphone-ness.
Whatever if missing for you is likely to come with the SDK. Someone will make it.
Hey, YouTube is a lot of fun.
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So you're saying Windows and Palm are actually pretty good?
No I wasn't really saying they were good. Only that they were entrenched competition.
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That's how I see it, and why Apple are successful in the USA and why I said it was low-hanging fruit.
I agree all someone had to do was come out with a better phone and would easily outsell WM or Palm. But up to this point no one did that. Not Nokia or S/E.
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However, it's resulted in a US market for smartphones that was only about 10% of the world's market..... until Apple came along and educated the USA as to why smartphones are cool. Couple it with some good marketing and persuading a carrier to not be such an arse and they have a hit there.
I wouldn't say that US consumers did not want or see the value in smartphones. What has been holding it back are the carriers, their plans and pricing. ATT and the iPhone have shown them all just how much demand their is for smartphones and how stupid they've all been about giving it to us.
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I'm an Apple fan. I'm disappointed that the 4 year old SE P910i I've already got is a better smartphone than Apple's new phone for me. Do you not think that's a sad situation to be in?
Not really. I'm an Apple fan too. But if I found some other product fit my needs better than an Apple product I would use the other that fit my needs. I certainly would not spend hours of my life complaining about it.
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1) Nokia managed to sell over 18 million smartphones in the quarter.
2) It shows there's a problem with the pricing or the product when it's not selling well.
Nokia sells multiple phones in multiple countries on multiple carriers. What one phone could Nokia sell in one country on one carrier for a premium price at a premium tariff and sell 20,000 of them?
Apple sold one phone in four countries on four carriers. Has sold 4 million in 8 months adding around $400 million in revenue.
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And our smartphone market is much bigger than the USA although ours only grew at 50-something percent and the USA grew at 222 percent, largely because of RIM and Apple.
Now that many of the barriers are down the US market will grow much larger.
So, let's see... the Blackjack II is actually quite a bit lighter than the iPhone, is marginally shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and is only about 10% thicker. And has 3G
I think you either missed or conveniently ignored my response the last time you brought up the BlackJack 2. You leave out key differences in your comparison.
The Blackjack has a 2.4" 320x240 screen, 3.5" 320x480 on the iPhone.
The BlackJack has a 260MHz CPU, 640MHz CPU on the iPhone
The Blackjack has 128MB of storage, the iPhone has 8/16GB of storage.
The BlackJack has no touchscreen, the iPhone is totally a touchscreen.
Unfortunately one exaggeration or lie perpetrates another and somebody is going to use it as fact. Thus a perception becomes reality.
Fair enough. How much bigger and heavier do you think a 3G iPhone would have been (in July, and/or now)) - with HSPA and the same battery life. I was basing my estimate largely on the extra size required between the smallest 2G and smallest 3G phones now in shops (even they still have less battery life), and presuming the internals of the iPhone don't have any space left over.
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Originally Posted by Abster2core
Only an idiot would condone it.
Take it easy, I'm not an idiot or a liar. If not to show a simple respect, do it to reinforce your argument by responding to the issue rather than attacking someone.
Fair enough. How much bigger and heavier do you think a 3G iPhone would have been (in July, and/or now)) - with HSPA and the same battery life. I was basing my estimate largely on the extra size required between the smallest 2G and smallest 3G phones now in shops (even they still have less battery life), and presuming the internals of the iPhone don't have any space left over.
I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.
I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.
That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.
I am from SE Asia and I am eagerly awaiting its release here. Last year I bought an iPod touch and am enjoying it. I like the multi touch screen feature very much that I badly want a cellphone with that feature.
That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.
Sigh. Other people have managed it in smaller phones with better battery life and you still ignore the fact you can always switch it off to save battery life. It's a non issue.
Apple had to write the YouTube app and the mobile iTunes from scratch and they both worked fine from day one. You may not consider these major features. But I haven't seen YouTube or music downloads as sophisticated on any other phone.
Then you've really not looked at what is going on in Europe.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
The Maps app has been completely rewritten. Here is what I was specifically talking about. Google Locate Me and Skyhook location software were not available when the iPhone was released.
But they were on other phones, although to be honest I prefer TomTom or MGMaps on my phone anyway.
I really don't consider these major feature updates. You might I guess having not had them for years already. What puzzles many people is they're spending time on secondary features when the phone's main features were lacking. Poor SMS, No MMS, Poor camera, No Video capture, No voice recording. Maybe if they had a todo list feature they could organise their development priorities correctly?
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Whatever if missing for you is likely to come with the SDK. Someone will make it.
Some features though have to be done by Apple. No 3rd party is going to hack full IMAP support into Mobile Mail or add photo/video editing into the camera app for instance. We'll see when the SDK arrives as to how much of it is a private API and what isn't and also the licencing terms. I really hope they don't make developers sign their apps through an expensive signing policy or it'll stifle 3rd party open source development. I may start writing apps myself. I've a few I'd miss on my current phone which would be simple candidates to get my feet wet in iPhone development.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Hey, YouTube is a lot of fun.
For about 5 minutes. I'd rather have an email app that supports IMAP IDLE on any IMAP connection, not just Yahoo.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
I agree all someone had to do was come out with a better phone and would easily outsell WM or Palm. But up to this point no one did that. Not Nokia or S/E.
Nokia and SE *have*. Symbian has about 80% of the European market. Why the carriers haven't picked up these handsets for the US puzzles me. Some of it is being GSM only and also in the USA you go nuts for chiclet keypads like the Blackberry and Palm or QWERTY pads like the big HTCs. Here we don't so much. We've a much wider range of smartphones.
IIRC the Nokia CEO said a few years back that they didn't understand the USA. They built phones for Europe, for how they wanted phones, which is why they didn't build flip phones. Apple sometimes do this the opposite way around where Apple don't think of how Europe works. eg. European keyboards having keys in the wrong place, AppleTV not having SCART or any content, iPhone missing key European features and US style pricing structures.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
I wouldn't say that US consumers did not want or see the value in smartphones. What has been holding it back are the carriers, their plans and pricing. ATT and the iPhone have shown them all just how much demand their is for smartphones and how stupid they've all been about giving it to us.
Yep. That's what I said. Here on the other hand it's Apple and their carriers that are holding back sales of the iPhone by pricing it out of reach and restricting it.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Not really. I'm an Apple fan too. But if I found some other product fit my needs better than an Apple product I would use the other that fit my needs. I certainly would not spend hours of my life complaining about it.
Although you're spending much more time than I am defending it.
I need a new phone soon to replace the P910i which is looking a little battle worn after 4 years. I've tried a few, including the P990 (too buggy) and N95 (no touch screen). I love the iPhone UI and Safari but it's missing some features I need that would require me still having to carry another phone. I also think it'd be silly to buy a phone that isn't 3G in 2008. Spending hours bitching on Apple forums either way probably isn't going to change anything I guess but I quite like venting my frustration on the lack of ANY phone available currently that does what I want in one package.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Nokia sells multiple phones in multiple countries on multiple carriers. What one phone could Nokia sell in one country on one carrier for a premium price at a premium tariff and sell 20,000 of them?
It's not getting through to you yet is it?
Nobody in Europe does that, except Apple, which is why they aren't selling 18 million phones a quarter and are only selling a few hundred thousand in the biggest smartphone market. Early days I guess and I'm all for building a market organically and slowly but it'd be a pity to see it falter.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Apple sold one phone in four countries on four carriers. Has sold 4 million in 8 months adding around $400 million in revenue.
90% of which was in the USA, a market with almost no smartphone competition. You may think of WM/RIM/Palm as the entrenched competition but it's a tiny niche market in the USA so at that stage of a market it's easy to become a leader. Here it's not so small a niche and they've got competition from Symbian, who are like Apple in the MP3 market. Here, Apple managed to release a Zune.
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Originally Posted by TenoBell
Now that many of the barriers are down the US market will grow much larger.
Yep. Has to be good for everyone. Apple entering the market has stirred up a stagnant market and I really hope the Symbian, Microsoft, RIM and even Palm are raising their game to match.
Comments
Have you seen the latest Orange France stats yet? They only sold 20,000 in January. 20,000 in one of Europe's biggest countries.
Ugh. That's even bleaker when you consider that mobile phone penetration in most European nations is quite a bit higher than it is in the US.
I was explicitly bitching about the 2G phone chip but add the shitty camera.
I agree but in this case the iPhone has those features - ie. a radio chip and a camera - they're just poor implementations for such an expensive phone.
IYO Aegis, is it fair to say that, for the price, your average Euro customer expects 3G and either a 3.2 or a 5.0 megapixel camera?
No, I was asking Teno when he expects them to aggressively update the iPhone and he was suggesting 'sometime before the end of the year'. I agree with you - it'll have to be soon.
I think Apple would be very foolish to wait until the end of the year to update the iPhone in a major way. The Asian launch and good Euro sales practically require an iPhone 2.0... that's where we're at, and I'm sure Apple is aware of it. The capacity update is great as far as it goes, but by itself, is more of a stopgap than anything else.
...
Depends where you are. In the US, you'd be correct to say that WM and Palm are a significant force, at least in sales. But elsewhere in the world, it seems to be all about Symbian and their 70-75% worldwide marketshare in smartphones.
I was only talking about the US.
You gotta understand, the Euros will naturally tend to have a very different view than Americans on something like this. WM and Palm are a bit of a joke to them because WM and Palm aren't that successful outside of the US.
Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.
Therefore, on the iPhone, 3G would definitely be used, and the iPhone's browser share should explode. Win-win, wouldn't you say.
I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.
No, I think he's simply seeing it through a Euro consumer's eyes.
"I am European and I find the iPhone to be a simply astonishing device. I use it constantly, not because it is crammed with features, but because unlike Nokia's devices, its features actually work. That functionality makes it more valuable to me. "
Carniphage, Sheffield England
"I, like many iPhone users have found this is the first phone where I have explored 'every' feature on the device and when more features are added i'll have already learnt the device inside out so I'll get to know all of the new features in depth too. It's one of those things Apple have always done right. They understand the balance between functionality and clutter. The balance between Form and Function."
Dazabrit, UK
"All in all a stunningly beautiful and "truly revolutionary" handheld device (it's not just a phone) with a few very noticable but very fixable oversights.I have to admit it, it's hard not to love the iPhone once you have really used it.
Now excuse me while I go touch the future."
Ireland, Ireland
I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G.
I find it interesting how many articles said something like
"Wow, how did they get it so small and sleek"
followed immediately by "Pity it's not 3G".
And very few articles really put the 2 together. I mean, it's a no brainer to want a 3G iPhone but with the same size and battery life as the current iPhone... I'd love one.
So - if Apple had released a 3G version side by side with their 2G version.... even the same price... and the 3G was 50% thicker and twice the weight (bigger battery squeezed in), which would you have chosen?
So - if Apple had released a 3G version side by side with their 2G version.... even the same price... and the 3G was 50% thicker and twice the weight (bigger battery squeezed in), which would you have chosen?
'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.
Look around... there's plenty of 3G smartphones out that are nearly as thin as the iPhone, and weigh about the same. Take the Samsung Blackjack II, for instance:
Blackjack II: (3G smartphone)
Weight\t 4.09 oz (116 g)
Dimensions\t 4.48" x 2.39" x 0.51"
iPhone:
Weight\t 4.8 oz (136 g)
Dimensions\t 4.5" x 2.4" x 0.46"
So, let's see... the Blackjack II is actually quite a bit lighter than the iPhone, is marginally shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and is only about 10% thicker. And has 3G.
Before you go, "Well, what about battery life?", the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time, nearly as good as the iPhone. And it actually has more standby time... 336 hours vs 250 for the iPhone.
What ppl don't seem to get is that the 3G chipsets are getting better all the time in regards to things like power consumption, weight, and size. The 3G iPhone, when it arrives, certainly will not be a tank.
.
I was only talking about the US.
In that case, I would agree with you. But you do understand why the Euros do not see WM and Palm as being particularly strong competition. In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they're not.
Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.
The majority of Euro postings to date seem to be closer to Aegis' point of view on most things iPhone-related than your own. I don't think this is really news to you.
I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.
What you seem to willfully ignore at every turn, though, is the fact that the iPhone's data use would be much more 'wildly successful' still if it had 3G.
Again, its all about user experience... Safari is a great first step, but you need to mate it to a decent data connection. GPRS isn't it, and thats what many Euros are stuck with if they're mobile and do not have a 3G-capable phone. And those Euros have been voting with their pocketbooks.
"I am European and I find the iPhone to be a simply astonishing device. I use it constantly, not because it is crammed with features, but because unlike Nokia's devices, its features actually work. That functionality makes it more valuable to me. "
etc. etc.
That's great Teno, but I'm sure if I had the time and desire, I could dig up five times more quotes that generally agree with aegis and disagree with you.
And of course, we have the slow Euro sales to back that up.
I'm sure that many Euro consumers do find things in the iPhone to admire, but unfortunately, those things haven't been compelling enough to make many Euro consumers overlook the iPhone's weaknesses and/or price.
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Yeah but they didn't raise the price, they just didn't lower it. Existing model is the same price, you said they rose the price.. they didn't, they merely added a more expensive "newer" model.
I was referring to the biggest one, cause that's the only one I'd get. So the price for the biggest size rose 100 bucks, but w/e, not like it matters, I'll wait til the 32 GB is cheaper
On the other hand, if they were selling the 32 GB for 399, I'd be in for one now
Come on Aegis you are going way out of way reaching for criticism. Bug fixes are when something doesn't work correctly. So far the major functions on the iPhone have worked fine.
Much of the new functionality wasn't even available when the iPhone was first introduced.
I don't think I am reaching but perhaps you can remind me what 'major functionality' they've added. Or what you mean by not existing when the phone was first introduced other than a custom YouTube client and iTunes in Starbucks?
Yeah ToDo's is absolutely required of any phone...
Of any smartphone, yes, I think it is. A fully implemented PIM is one of the cornerstones of smartphone-ness. YouTube isn't.
I wouldn't call the entrenched Windows Mobile and Palm "no competition."
So you're saying Windows and Palm are actually pretty good?
The US market is basically Windows Mobile, Palm and RIM. RIM have done well to get where Palm should have been. Windows has just been shit all along. Symbian for whatever reason doesn't feature in the USA, largely because of your phone standards and reluctance from carriers to take Nokia's handsets it seems. I don't understand quite why exactly. There's cultural differences with candybars v flips (Here flip phones are for teens and chavs). However, it's resulted in a US market for smartphones that was only about 10% of the world's market..... until Apple came along and educated the USA as to why smartphones are cool. Couple it with some good marketing and persuading a carrier to not be such an arse and they have a hit there.
That's how I see it, and why Apple are successful in the USA and why I said it was low-hanging fruit.
In Europe, it's different. The phone hardware was a bit last year already, the software missing features we use more here, the carrier tariffs very high (though O2 have fixed that now) and the initial handset price astronomical. We've much more choice in handsets, carriers and tariffs. We've higher expectations in hardware features regardless of how nice the UI is.
Penetration of smartphones in Europe may have happened faster than in the US. But actual use of them beyond phone calls and texting has been no faster.
Really? Prove it. And I don't mean by browser share. That's not the only thing you use smartphones for.
You are talking in specs and theory. But in actual practice the iPhone in 8 months has captured .13% of the worlds browser share, more than any other phone. What good is the 3G in many other phones if it is rarely used?
For when you actually want fast data ?
It's not 3G that is stopping browser usage on the other phones, it's the poor browsers and until last year at least, the tariffs. That's all changed recently.
Instead of buying the phone that meets your needs and enjoying life, you seem comfortable just to bitch about everything in regards to the iPhone in general.
I'm an Apple fan. I'm disappointed that the 4 year old SE P910i I've already got is a better smartphone than Apple's new phone for me. Do you not think that's a sad situation to be in?
The SDK may fix that though if 3rd party developers add the features that I want in a phone that are currently missing from the iPhone.
Well what other phone would sell 20,000 units on one carrier at 339 Euros with a 49 Euro tariff? Bringing new customers to its carrier.
There's two answers there...
1) Nokia managed to sell over 18 million smartphones in the quarter.
2) It shows there's a problem with the pricing or the product when it's not selling well.
Ugh. That's even bleaker when you consider that mobile phone penetration in most European nations is quite a bit higher than it is in the US.
And our smartphone market is much bigger than the USA although ours only grew at 50-something percent and the USA grew at 222 percent, largely because of RIM and Apple.
IYO Aegis, is it fair to say that, for the price, your average Euro customer expects 3G and either a 3.2 or a 5.0 megapixel camera?
Yes, I'd say so although the iPhone is pretty much priced way above anyone other than maybe the expensive fashion Nokias and Vertu phones. N95 8GB, HTC Tytans and Viewtys can be had for free now.
Do you notice you've only taken what Aegis has said as the entire European view? Pretty heavy load carrying the opinion of 700 million people who have different cultures and speak different languages.
The sales figures speak for themselves really. I'm only trying to explain them by giving you context.
I've said several times the iPhone experience will be better with 3G. But the current reality is that iPhone data use is wildly successful. Their is more to do with that success than only radio chips or frequencies.
It's entirely down to good browser software and the fact you're tied to a data plan, even if you're stuck on GPRS/EDGE. That's not usually the case with other phones. IME heavy 3G users use it by tethering their phone to a laptop too.
'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.
Look around... there's plenty of 3G smartphones out that are nearly as thin as the iPhone, and weigh about the same. Take the Samsung Blackjack II, for instance:
Before you go, "Well, what about battery life?", the Blackjack II has 7 hours talk time, nearly as good as the iPhone. And it actually has more standby time... 336 hours vs 250 for the iPhone.
What ppl don't seem to get is that the 3G chipsets are getting better all the time in regards to things like power consumption, weight, and size. The 3G iPhone, when it arrives, certainly will not be a tank..
That is what Steve has been saying from the beginning.
But we must keep in mind, that talking on a phone is not the issue. Using the phone more, like watching movies is going to eat into available talk time. Using a phone for surfing the net more is going to eat into available talk time. Just using a phone more is going to eat into available talk time. And let's face it, all those things, they way you can do it and how you can do it is going to eat into available talk time.
More important, until the technology improves, 3g will just make you use your iPhone more. And if after everything else, the one thing you don't want to happen is not have enough available talk time when you need to use your phone to phone.
'50% thicker and twice the weight' is a gross exaggeration.
It is an exaggeration.
I appreciate the counter example.
I wish you'd responded to what I was talking about, rather than picking at how much bigger/heavier. Ah well.
It is an exaggeration.
I appreciate the counter example.
I wish you'd responded to what I was talking about, rather than picking at how much bigger/heavier. Ah well.
Unfortunately one exaggeration or lie perpetrates another and somebody is going to use it as fact. Thus a perception becomes reality.
Only an idiot would condone it.
But you do understand why the Euros do not see WM and Palm as being particularly strong competition. In Europe, and most of the rest of the world, they're not.
The same as Sony/Ericson and Nokia aren't strong competition in the US. But WM and Palm were more entrenched in the US.
The majority of Euro postings to date seem to be closer to Aegis' point of view on most things iPhone-related than your own. I don't think this is really news to you.
I wouldn't say the majority. I think those are the ones who are most vocal. Their were several Euros who bought iPhones from the US and unlocked them before they were officially launched.
What you seem to willfully ignore at every turn, though, is the fact that the iPhone's data use would be much more 'wildly successful' still if it had 3G.
What evidence do you have that this would happen? Certainly not based on current 3G data use.
That's great Teno, but I'm sure if I had the time and desire, I could dig up five times more quotes that generally agree with aegis and disagree with you.
That's such linear thinking. My point was that Eruos are not homogeneous. Some like the iPhone, some don't care for it what it is now.
I'm sure that many Euro consumers do find things in the iPhone to admire, but unfortunately, those things haven't been compelling enough to make many Euro consumers overlook the iPhone's weaknesses and/or price.
The 4 million in sales clearly shows their is a strong demand for the iPhone. Just not necessarily a strong demand for Orange, O2, or T-Mobile.
I don't think I am reaching but perhaps you can remind me what 'major functionality' they've added. Or what you mean by not existing when the phone was first introduced other than a custom YouTube client and iTunes in Starbucks?
Apple had to write the YouTube app and the mobile iTunes from scratch and they both worked fine from day one. You may not consider these major features. But I haven't seen YouTube or music downloads as sophisticated on any other phone.
The Maps app has been completely rewritten. Here is what I was specifically talking about. Google Locate Me and Skyhook location software were not available when the iPhone was released.
Of any smartphone, yes, I think it is. A fully implemented PIM is one of the cornerstones of smartphone-ness.
Whatever if missing for you is likely to come with the SDK. Someone will make it.
Hey, YouTube is a lot of fun.
So you're saying Windows and Palm are actually pretty good?
No I wasn't really saying they were good. Only that they were entrenched competition.
That's how I see it, and why Apple are successful in the USA and why I said it was low-hanging fruit.
I agree all someone had to do was come out with a better phone and would easily outsell WM or Palm. But up to this point no one did that. Not Nokia or S/E.
However, it's resulted in a US market for smartphones that was only about 10% of the world's market..... until Apple came along and educated the USA as to why smartphones are cool. Couple it with some good marketing and persuading a carrier to not be such an arse and they have a hit there.
I wouldn't say that US consumers did not want or see the value in smartphones. What has been holding it back are the carriers, their plans and pricing. ATT and the iPhone have shown them all just how much demand their is for smartphones and how stupid they've all been about giving it to us.
I'm an Apple fan. I'm disappointed that the 4 year old SE P910i I've already got is a better smartphone than Apple's new phone for me. Do you not think that's a sad situation to be in?
Not really. I'm an Apple fan too. But if I found some other product fit my needs better than an Apple product I would use the other that fit my needs. I certainly would not spend hours of my life complaining about it.
1) Nokia managed to sell over 18 million smartphones in the quarter.
2) It shows there's a problem with the pricing or the product when it's not selling well.
Nokia sells multiple phones in multiple countries on multiple carriers. What one phone could Nokia sell in one country on one carrier for a premium price at a premium tariff and sell 20,000 of them?
Apple sold one phone in four countries on four carriers. Has sold 4 million in 8 months adding around $400 million in revenue.
And our smartphone market is much bigger than the USA although ours only grew at 50-something percent and the USA grew at 222 percent, largely because of RIM and Apple.
Now that many of the barriers are down the US market will grow much larger.
So, let's see... the Blackjack II is actually quite a bit lighter than the iPhone, is marginally shorter and narrower than the iPhone, and is only about 10% thicker. And has 3G
I think you either missed or conveniently ignored my response the last time you brought up the BlackJack 2. You leave out key differences in your comparison.
The Blackjack has a 2.4" 320x240 screen, 3.5" 320x480 on the iPhone.
The BlackJack has a 260MHz CPU, 640MHz CPU on the iPhone
The Blackjack has 128MB of storage, the iPhone has 8/16GB of storage.
The BlackJack has no touchscreen, the iPhone is totally a touchscreen.
This all makes a huge difference in battery life.
Unfortunately one exaggeration or lie perpetrates another and somebody is going to use it as fact. Thus a perception becomes reality.
Fair enough. How much bigger and heavier do you think a 3G iPhone would have been (in July, and/or now)) - with HSPA and the same battery life. I was basing my estimate largely on the extra size required between the smallest 2G and smallest 3G phones now in shops (even they still have less battery life), and presuming the internals of the iPhone don't have any space left over.
Only an idiot would condone it.
Take it easy, I'm not an idiot or a liar. If not to show a simple respect, do it to reinforce your argument by responding to the issue rather than attacking someone.
Fair enough. How much bigger and heavier do you think a 3G iPhone would have been (in July, and/or now)) - with HSPA and the same battery life. I was basing my estimate largely on the extra size required between the smallest 2G and smallest 3G phones now in shops (even they still have less battery life), and presuming the internals of the iPhone don't have any space left over.
I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.
I can't attest to this being true or false, but it is possible that in a year's time that improvements in 3G technology, battery density and power management will maintain the iPhone's current dimensions.
That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.
That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.
Exactly!
That's the idea. We won't see 3G or GPS until they can fit into the iPhones dimensions and power requirements.
Sigh. Other people have managed it in smaller phones with better battery life and you still ignore the fact you can always switch it off to save battery life. It's a non issue.
Apple had to write the YouTube app and the mobile iTunes from scratch and they both worked fine from day one. You may not consider these major features. But I haven't seen YouTube or music downloads as sophisticated on any other phone.
Then you've really not looked at what is going on in Europe.
The Maps app has been completely rewritten. Here is what I was specifically talking about. Google Locate Me and Skyhook location software were not available when the iPhone was released.
But they were on other phones, although to be honest I prefer TomTom or MGMaps on my phone anyway.
I really don't consider these major feature updates. You might I guess having not had them for years already. What puzzles many people is they're spending time on secondary features when the phone's main features were lacking. Poor SMS, No MMS, Poor camera, No Video capture, No voice recording. Maybe if they had a todo list feature they could organise their development priorities correctly?
Whatever if missing for you is likely to come with the SDK. Someone will make it.
Some features though have to be done by Apple. No 3rd party is going to hack full IMAP support into Mobile Mail or add photo/video editing into the camera app for instance. We'll see when the SDK arrives as to how much of it is a private API and what isn't and also the licencing terms. I really hope they don't make developers sign their apps through an expensive signing policy or it'll stifle 3rd party open source development. I may start writing apps myself. I've a few I'd miss on my current phone which would be simple candidates to get my feet wet in iPhone development.
Hey, YouTube is a lot of fun.
For about 5 minutes. I'd rather have an email app that supports IMAP IDLE on any IMAP connection, not just Yahoo.
I agree all someone had to do was come out with a better phone and would easily outsell WM or Palm. But up to this point no one did that. Not Nokia or S/E.
Nokia and SE *have*. Symbian has about 80% of the European market. Why the carriers haven't picked up these handsets for the US puzzles me. Some of it is being GSM only and also in the USA you go nuts for chiclet keypads like the Blackberry and Palm or QWERTY pads like the big HTCs. Here we don't so much. We've a much wider range of smartphones.
IIRC the Nokia CEO said a few years back that they didn't understand the USA. They built phones for Europe, for how they wanted phones, which is why they didn't build flip phones. Apple sometimes do this the opposite way around where Apple don't think of how Europe works. eg. European keyboards having keys in the wrong place, AppleTV not having SCART or any content, iPhone missing key European features and US style pricing structures.
I wouldn't say that US consumers did not want or see the value in smartphones. What has been holding it back are the carriers, their plans and pricing. ATT and the iPhone have shown them all just how much demand their is for smartphones and how stupid they've all been about giving it to us.
Yep. That's what I said. Here on the other hand it's Apple and their carriers that are holding back sales of the iPhone by pricing it out of reach and restricting it.
Not really. I'm an Apple fan too. But if I found some other product fit my needs better than an Apple product I would use the other that fit my needs. I certainly would not spend hours of my life complaining about it.
Although you're spending much more time than I am defending it.
I need a new phone soon to replace the P910i which is looking a little battle worn after 4 years. I've tried a few, including the P990 (too buggy) and N95 (no touch screen). I love the iPhone UI and Safari but it's missing some features I need that would require me still having to carry another phone. I also think it'd be silly to buy a phone that isn't 3G in 2008. Spending hours bitching on Apple forums either way probably isn't going to change anything I guess but I quite like venting my frustration on the lack of ANY phone available currently that does what I want in one package.
Nokia sells multiple phones in multiple countries on multiple carriers. What one phone could Nokia sell in one country on one carrier for a premium price at a premium tariff and sell 20,000 of them?
It's not getting through to you yet is it?
Nobody in Europe does that, except Apple, which is why they aren't selling 18 million phones a quarter and are only selling a few hundred thousand in the biggest smartphone market. Early days I guess and I'm all for building a market organically and slowly but it'd be a pity to see it falter.
Apple sold one phone in four countries on four carriers. Has sold 4 million in 8 months adding around $400 million in revenue.
90% of which was in the USA, a market with almost no smartphone competition. You may think of WM/RIM/Palm as the entrenched competition but it's a tiny niche market in the USA so at that stage of a market it's easy to become a leader. Here it's not so small a niche and they've got competition from Symbian, who are like Apple in the MP3 market. Here, Apple managed to release a Zune.
Now that many of the barriers are down the US market will grow much larger.
Yep. Has to be good for everyone. Apple entering the market has stirred up a stagnant market and I really hope the Symbian, Microsoft, RIM and even Palm are raising their game to match.