I think Apple was between a rock and a hard place so Steve Jobs had to make an executive decision, which is very similar to what happened when Apple first started using Intel processors. I am sure Apple would have preferred every Mac using Intel processors to start off 64-bit, but they had to start somewhere. I can still recall the complaints about the iMac going from 64-bit PPC to 32-bit x86.
The good news is, at least according to Wikipedia, the USB 3.0 specifications are complete as of November 17, 2008, and hardware manufacturers can start working on peripherals. The MacBook was updated with a Penryn processor just four months after it was updated with Santa Rosa so I expect Apple to get USB 3.0 into the MacBook and MacBook Pro ASAP.
what rock and which hard place?
finding the (correct) answer to that question is the entire point of this thread.
USB3 in the notebook line would be great (to replace USB2 - still can't replace FW obviously)
but as I replied to your other post in one of the 'future' threads (and has been stated here a number of times)
it won't be out for a while (late 2009 / early 2010)
Intel have only (just) released their draft host controller spec
...so you're right, it's only the peripheral makers who can start work just now
You've gotta be kidding. When Lenovo can put a USB port on a Netbook and Expresscard34 slots Apple has not one freakin' excuse.
There is a major difference between the machines, so much so that outside of being notebooks they aren't even comparable. The processing abilities, the quality, size & type of the major components used are vastly superior in the MBA over any netbook. Because Lenovo makes a really thick notebook doesn't mean that Apple should. I wonder which company has gained more net profit from their efforts?
Wow ..can't believe some of y'all still have the energy to fight this battle.
You've gotta be kidding. When Lenovo can put a USB port on a Netbook and Expresscard34 slots Apple has not one freakin' excuse.
"The excuse has been floated that there simply wasn't room for FireWire or an ExpressCard slot in the slimmed-down unibody case, but I find it difficult to buy that. Of course the old school MacBook had no ExpressCard slot either, and the preceding iBook no CardBus slot -- more a matter of market placement than lack of room."
Even if Apple makes a netbook it sure as hell won't have an expresscard 34 slot. And I really doubt an Apple netbook. I get the impression that as far as Apple is concerned the iPhone/iTouch fills that segment of their lineup.
Even if Apple makes a netbook it sure as hell won't have an expresscard 34 slot.
This is Apple. We mustn't put anything past them.
What if they brought out a cheap barebones NetBook which only had an ExpressCard slot?
You would just order the NetBook and add the necessary cards (Apple manufactured of course) to your order. eSATA, USB, Firewire, Card Readers, Solid State etc. Just imagine having your OSX setup sitting on a SSD in an ExpressCard module. True Plug and Play.
Now that I think about it, the idea is growing on me. The only problem would be getting Apple to do the impossible: get the pricing right!
What if they brought out a cheap barebones NetBook which only had an ExpressCard slot?
You would just order the NetBook and add the necessary cards (Apple manufactured of course) to your order. eSATA, USB, Firewire, Card Readers, Solid State etc. Just imagine having your OSX setup sitting on a SSD in an ExpressCard module. True Plug and Play.
Now that I think about it, the idea is growing on me. The only problem would be getting Apple to do the impossible: get the pricing right!
This is the logical scenario that has escaped Apple. They are so dogmatic about their design choices and getting you to see their way of thinking it has hampered the very essence of computing. One size does not fit all. I'm fine with running a USB hub I don't need a plethora of USB ports on my computer. I'd rather have Expresscard34 cards to fit my personal needs.
Apple has been missing quite a few "intelligent" and "desired" things in their lineup for years. From an engineering standpoint not having expresscard in all of their laptops is butt stupid. Likewise xMac, docking stations, thicker batteries and your favorite product that Apple doesn't make.
From a product market management standpoint...it seems to work better than any other strategy. Not Sony, Dell, HP, Lenovo etc has done a better job. Apple gets the job done with fewer sku's, less cost, higher growth and more profit.
This is why engineers typically make crappy business folks.
What if they brought out a cheap barebones NetBook which only had an ExpressCard slot?
You would just order the NetBook and add the necessary cards (Apple manufactured of course) to your order. eSATA, USB, Firewire, Card Readers, Solid State etc. Just imagine having your OSX setup sitting on a SSD in an ExpressCard module. True Plug and Play.
Now that I think about it, the idea is growing on me. The only problem would be getting Apple to do the impossible: get the pricing right!
I hadn't thought of that.
That's actually a VERY good idea!
Hmmm!
You could get any port you wanted. You could get two or even three on one card, and switch them in and out as needed.
Hmmm!
I wonder if any companies are doing this, or are thinking about it?
You could get any port you wanted. You could get two or even three on one card, and switch them in and out as needed.
Hmmm!
I wonder if any companies are doing this, or are thinking about it?
No, it's not a very good idea. You end up with the ports sticking out of the slot because it's too thin. A USB plug does slide into the space of the expresscard slot but you have to allow for SOME amount of casing and the slot is thinner than the USB ports on my MBP.
No, it's not a very good idea. You end up with the ports sticking out of the slot because it's too thin. A USB plug does slide into the space of the expresscard slot but you have to allow for SOME amount of casing and the slot is thinner than the USB ports on my MBP.
Maybe the mini versions of ports would work.
Yeah, for versatility, it would be kinda cool, but I always hate any cards sticking out over the edge of my MBP (or the previous PowerBook, etc.) -- seemed more clumsy and breakable that way. If they could find a way to make the cards (and their ports) flush, that would be completely modular-ly great.
No, it's not a very good idea. You end up with the ports sticking out of the slot because it's too thin. A USB plug does slide into the space of the expresscard slot but you have to allow for SOME amount of casing and the slot is thinner than the USB ports on my MBP.
Maybe the mini versions of ports would work.
No, I think it's great. There will be developers who will come up with good implementations.
The idea of ports on Express cards and the older PC cards have been around for a while. I don't know of any symptomatic problems here, do you?
Yeah, for versatility, it would be kinda cool, but I always hate any cards sticking out over the edge of my MBP (or the previous PowerBook, etc.) -- seemed more clumsy and breakable that way. If they could find a way to make the cards (and their ports) flush, that would be completely modular-ly great.
It may seem that way, but where is the evidence for it?
You don't need to have the card plugged in when it's not being used.
It may seem that way, but where is the evidence for it?
You don't need to have the card plugged in when it's not being used.
I understand your point, but usually, say I'm on the set, we get done with a shot, we move to another set (or worse, on location, we up and drive somewhere for an afternoon shot). I usually just dump my laptop in my bag and go. I always worry about catching an over-edge card when doing that, and it also ruins the aesthetics. I had to use a firewire card years ago, and a SCSI card as well. Always hated them. Glad when I didn't have to use them anymore... which should put me into the "why'd they drop the firewire port" camp, though it doesn't.
Extra effort to be plugging and unplugging cards. It's why I like wireless backup. No muss, no fuss. But that's just me. As I said, I could see the versatility of it (and if I needed a rugged do-anything laptop for, say, astronomical imaging -- which I like -- that would be a cool thing), but I don't like it for other reasons. Sounds like it's subjective at this point. So... there is no evidence either way.
I understand your point, but usually, say I'm on the set, we get done with a shot, we move to another set (or worse, on location, we up and drive somewhere for an afternoon shot). I usually just dump my laptop in my bag and go. I always worry about catching an over-edge card when doing that, and it also ruins the aesthetics. I had to use a firewire card years ago, and a SCSI card as well. Always hated them. Glad when I didn't have to use them anymore... which should put me into the "why'd they drop the firewire port" camp, though it doesn't.
I remember the days when I shot the Clairol Summer Blonde ads for Tv. If we hadn't locked up a location, we might do the same thing.
Of course, back then, it was "throw the Mitchell" in the van, and let's get going. Sometimes, it was also: "where's that damn Nagra?"
Quote:
Extra effort to be plugging and unplugging cards. It's why I like wireless backup. No muss, no fuss. But that's just me. As I said, I could see the versatility of it (and if I needed a rugged do-anything laptop for, say, astronomical imaging -- which I like -- that would be a cool thing), but I don't like it for other reasons. Sounds like it's subjective at this point. So... there is no evidence either way.
I think we're mostly talking about a MB as opposed to a MBP.
I remember the days when I shot the Clairol Summer Blonde ads for Tv. If we hadn't locked up a location, we might do the same thing.
Of course, back then, it was "throw the Mitchell" in the van, and let's get going. Sometimes, it was also: "where's that damn Nagra?"
Ahhh, Nagras... recorder of choice for in-the-field documentaries and John Lennon.
Quote:
I think we're mostly talking about a MB as opposed to a MBP.
Yeah, I know -- I was just talkin' generally. As I said, I could see a really versatile notebook that was uber-modular specifically. Would be cool. For the normal laptop (MB or MBP), I personally wouldn't want it. Just subjective.
Perhaps... We know the macbook and mbp (in particular) lines needed reinvigoration, design-wise. The new unibody case is here for the next 3-4 years. With USB2 to be supplanted by USB3 during this time - perhaps only a little more than a year after the introduction of the new case - and the writing on the wall for FW400 in terms of broad-appeal consumer peripherals, design decisions had to be made now - in order to save the cost of redesign/re-tooling, especially considering it being a new process.
No, I think it's great. There will be developers who will come up with good implementations.
The idea of ports on Express cards and the older PC cards have been around for a while. I don't know of any symptomatic problems here, do you?
Primarily snapping off the ports or getting them caught on something. Ever use one of the old ethernet pccards? Either you have a delicate port on the side of your laptop or this annoying adapter cable that likes to fall out a lot.
Is it a HUGE issue? No, but it screws with aesthetics and functionality in comparison to normal ports. It's great for expansion but no so hot for everyday use of a USB port.
You COULD go with a non-standard sized expresscard slot that is deeper and able to have embedded ports. That doesn't help you much though if you need a normal USB port AND want to have a normal expresscard in there...like a 3G modem. So you keep the regular 2xUSB and ethernet and add a expresscard slot for any other use so 90% of the users never have to muck with the thing. Arguably you can dump ethernet too.
Perhaps you can afford to dump all ports in favor of a single slot once wireless usb becomes common place and a travel sized hub is available.
Primarily snapping off the ports or getting them caught on something. Ever use one of the old ethernet pccards? Either you have a delicate port on the side of your laptop or this annoying adapter cable that likes to fall out a lot.
Is it a HUGE issue? No, but it screws with aesthetics and functionality in comparison to normal ports. It's great for expansion but no so hot for everyday use of a USB port.
You COULD go with a non-standard sized expresscard slot that is deeper and able to have embedded ports. That doesn't help you much though if you need a normal USB port AND want to have a normal expresscard in there...like a 3G modem. So you keep the regular 2xUSB and ethernet and add a expresscard slot for any other use so 90% of the users never have to muck with the thing. Arguably you can dump ethernet too.
Perhaps you can afford to dump all ports in favor of a single slot once wireless usb becomes common place and a travel sized hub is available.
If the breakage problem issue was a large one, then I could agree. But the truth is that I also see port breakage with standard ports, when someone either pulls the cable improperly, or the computer itself. I don't know if the expressport designs have much more of a problem with their ports.
But, I can say one thing about it. I'd rather have to replace a cheap Express card because of a broken port than have to send my computer in because of a broken port.
As far as esthetics goes, that's in the eye of the beholder, as it's said. I wouldn't keep it in all the time, only when I needed it. I would keep them with the cables, no loss issue for me, as I'm pretty good about that.
The advantage of having the ability to add any port I wanted to, no matter what Apple was thinking, would, by far, outweigh any disadvantages it would add, which, to me right now, seem to be minor.
One more thing, as someone sometimes says.
The issue of esthetics is interesting in this context. We see here how many guys complain that Apple is concerned too much with esthetics, and not enough with practicality. Now I see two guys saying that this idea wouldn't be esthetic enough, even though it would be practical (other that the POSSIBLE breakage issue).
We can see how Apple must tread that fine line. They can't make everyone happy at the same time.
Ummmmm, i think its time to make this thread a Sticky...... its never going to end!
Or rather, lock the thread.
This will be an issue until 1) Apple brings back FW; 2) No new FW400 accessories are made and enough time has passed that people have upgraded their FW accessories to USB; 3) FWoE gets made; 4) Apocalypse.
Comments
I think Apple was between a rock and a hard place so Steve Jobs had to make an executive decision, which is very similar to what happened when Apple first started using Intel processors. I am sure Apple would have preferred every Mac using Intel processors to start off 64-bit, but they had to start somewhere. I can still recall the complaints about the iMac going from 64-bit PPC to 32-bit x86.
The good news is, at least according to Wikipedia, the USB 3.0 specifications are complete as of November 17, 2008, and hardware manufacturers can start working on peripherals. The MacBook was updated with a Penryn processor just four months after it was updated with Santa Rosa so I expect Apple to get USB 3.0 into the MacBook and MacBook Pro ASAP.
what rock and which hard place?
finding the (correct) answer to that question is the entire point of this thread.
USB3 in the notebook line would be great (to replace USB2 - still can't replace FW obviously)
but as I replied to your other post in one of the 'future' threads (and has been stated here a number of times)
it won't be out for a while (late 2009 / early 2010)
Intel have only (just) released their draft host controller spec
...so you're right, it's only the peripheral makers who can start work just now
Everyday I'm reminded of just how out of touch Apple has become.
$1300 Macbook with USB and Ethernet as the primary connectivity.
NOT HOT
http://www.macopinion.com/index.php/...aps_they_will/
Lenovo Netbook
You've gotta be kidding. When Lenovo can put a USB port on a Netbook and Expresscard34 slots Apple has not one freakin' excuse.
Wow ..can't believe some of y'all still have the energy to fight this battle.
Everyday I'm reminded of just how out of touch Apple has become.
$1300 Macbook with USB and Ethernet as the primary connectivity.
NOT HOT
http://www.macopinion.com/index.php/...aps_they_will/
Lenovo Netbook
image: http://www.macopinion.com/images/uploads/T71ports.jpg
You've gotta be kidding. When Lenovo can put a USB port on a Netbook and Expresscard34 slots Apple has not one freakin' excuse.
There is a major difference between the machines, so much so that outside of being notebooks they aren't even comparable. The processing abilities, the quality, size & type of the major components used are vastly superior in the MBA over any netbook. Because Lenovo makes a really thick notebook doesn't mean that Apple should. I wonder which company has gained more net profit from their efforts?
Wow ..can't believe some of y'all still have the energy to fight this battle.
You've gotta be kidding. When Lenovo can put a USB port on a Netbook and Expresscard34 slots Apple has not one freakin' excuse.
"The excuse has been floated that there simply wasn't room for FireWire or an ExpressCard slot in the slimmed-down unibody case, but I find it difficult to buy that. Of course the old school MacBook had no ExpressCard slot either, and the preceding iBook no CardBus slot -- more a matter of market placement than lack of room."
Even if Apple makes a netbook it sure as hell won't have an expresscard 34 slot. And I really doubt an Apple netbook. I get the impression that as far as Apple is concerned the iPhone/iTouch fills that segment of their lineup.
[I]
Even if Apple makes a netbook it sure as hell won't have an expresscard 34 slot.
This is Apple. We mustn't put anything past them.
What if they brought out a cheap barebones NetBook which only had an ExpressCard slot?
You would just order the NetBook and add the necessary cards (Apple manufactured of course) to your order. eSATA, USB, Firewire, Card Readers, Solid State etc. Just imagine having your OSX setup sitting on a SSD in an ExpressCard module. True Plug and Play.
Now that I think about it, the idea is growing on me. The only problem would be getting Apple to do the impossible: get the pricing right!
This is Apple. We mustn't put anything past them.
What if they brought out a cheap barebones NetBook which only had an ExpressCard slot?
You would just order the NetBook and add the necessary cards (Apple manufactured of course) to your order. eSATA, USB, Firewire, Card Readers, Solid State etc. Just imagine having your OSX setup sitting on a SSD in an ExpressCard module. True Plug and Play.
Now that I think about it, the idea is growing on me. The only problem would be getting Apple to do the impossible: get the pricing right!
This is the logical scenario that has escaped Apple. They are so dogmatic about their design choices and getting you to see their way of thinking it has hampered the very essence of computing. One size does not fit all. I'm fine with running a USB hub I don't need a plethora of USB ports on my computer. I'd rather have Expresscard34 cards to fit my personal needs.
From a product market management standpoint...it seems to work better than any other strategy. Not Sony, Dell, HP, Lenovo etc has done a better job. Apple gets the job done with fewer sku's, less cost, higher growth and more profit.
This is why engineers typically make crappy business folks.
This is Apple. We mustn't put anything past them.
What if they brought out a cheap barebones NetBook which only had an ExpressCard slot?
You would just order the NetBook and add the necessary cards (Apple manufactured of course) to your order. eSATA, USB, Firewire, Card Readers, Solid State etc. Just imagine having your OSX setup sitting on a SSD in an ExpressCard module. True Plug and Play.
Now that I think about it, the idea is growing on me. The only problem would be getting Apple to do the impossible: get the pricing right!
I hadn't thought of that.
That's actually a VERY good idea!
Hmmm!
You could get any port you wanted. You could get two or even three on one card, and switch them in and out as needed.
Hmmm!
I wonder if any companies are doing this, or are thinking about it?
I hadn't thought of that.
That's actually a VERY good idea!
Hmmm!
You could get any port you wanted. You could get two or even three on one card, and switch them in and out as needed.
Hmmm!
I wonder if any companies are doing this, or are thinking about it?
No, it's not a very good idea. You end up with the ports sticking out of the slot because it's too thin. A USB plug does slide into the space of the expresscard slot but you have to allow for SOME amount of casing and the slot is thinner than the USB ports on my MBP.
Maybe the mini versions of ports would work.
No, it's not a very good idea. You end up with the ports sticking out of the slot because it's too thin. A USB plug does slide into the space of the expresscard slot but you have to allow for SOME amount of casing and the slot is thinner than the USB ports on my MBP.
Maybe the mini versions of ports would work.
Yeah, for versatility, it would be kinda cool, but I always hate any cards sticking out over the edge of my MBP (or the previous PowerBook, etc.) -- seemed more clumsy and breakable that way. If they could find a way to make the cards (and their ports) flush, that would be completely modular-ly great.
No, it's not a very good idea. You end up with the ports sticking out of the slot because it's too thin. A USB plug does slide into the space of the expresscard slot but you have to allow for SOME amount of casing and the slot is thinner than the USB ports on my MBP.
Maybe the mini versions of ports would work.
No, I think it's great. There will be developers who will come up with good implementations.
The idea of ports on Express cards and the older PC cards have been around for a while. I don't know of any symptomatic problems here, do you?
Yeah, for versatility, it would be kinda cool, but I always hate any cards sticking out over the edge of my MBP (or the previous PowerBook, etc.) -- seemed more clumsy and breakable that way. If they could find a way to make the cards (and their ports) flush, that would be completely modular-ly great.
It may seem that way, but where is the evidence for it?
You don't need to have the card plugged in when it's not being used.
It may seem that way, but where is the evidence for it?
You don't need to have the card plugged in when it's not being used.
I understand your point, but usually, say I'm on the set, we get done with a shot, we move to another set (or worse, on location, we up and drive somewhere for an afternoon shot). I usually just dump my laptop in my bag and go. I always worry about catching an over-edge card when doing that, and it also ruins the aesthetics. I had to use a firewire card years ago, and a SCSI card as well. Always hated them. Glad when I didn't have to use them anymore... which should put me into the "why'd they drop the firewire port" camp, though it doesn't.
Extra effort to be plugging and unplugging cards. It's why I like wireless backup. No muss, no fuss. But that's just me. As I said, I could see the versatility of it (and if I needed a rugged do-anything laptop for, say, astronomical imaging -- which I like -- that would be a cool thing), but I don't like it for other reasons. Sounds like it's subjective at this point. So... there is no evidence either way.
I understand your point, but usually, say I'm on the set, we get done with a shot, we move to another set (or worse, on location, we up and drive somewhere for an afternoon shot). I usually just dump my laptop in my bag and go. I always worry about catching an over-edge card when doing that, and it also ruins the aesthetics. I had to use a firewire card years ago, and a SCSI card as well. Always hated them. Glad when I didn't have to use them anymore... which should put me into the "why'd they drop the firewire port" camp, though it doesn't.
I remember the days when I shot the Clairol Summer Blonde ads for Tv. If we hadn't locked up a location, we might do the same thing.
Of course, back then, it was "throw the Mitchell" in the van, and let's get going. Sometimes, it was also: "where's that damn Nagra?"
Extra effort to be plugging and unplugging cards. It's why I like wireless backup. No muss, no fuss. But that's just me. As I said, I could see the versatility of it (and if I needed a rugged do-anything laptop for, say, astronomical imaging -- which I like -- that would be a cool thing), but I don't like it for other reasons. Sounds like it's subjective at this point. So... there is no evidence either way.
I think we're mostly talking about a MB as opposed to a MBP.
I remember the days when I shot the Clairol Summer Blonde ads for Tv. If we hadn't locked up a location, we might do the same thing.
Of course, back then, it was "throw the Mitchell" in the van, and let's get going. Sometimes, it was also: "where's that damn Nagra?"
Ahhh, Nagras... recorder of choice for in-the-field documentaries and John Lennon.
I think we're mostly talking about a MB as opposed to a MBP.
Yeah, I know -- I was just talkin' generally. As I said, I could see a really versatile notebook that was uber-modular specifically. Would be cool. For the normal laptop (MB or MBP), I personally wouldn't want it. Just subjective.
what rock and which hard place?
Perhaps... We know the macbook and mbp (in particular) lines needed reinvigoration, design-wise. The new unibody case is here for the next 3-4 years. With USB2 to be supplanted by USB3 during this time - perhaps only a little more than a year after the introduction of the new case - and the writing on the wall for FW400 in terms of broad-appeal consumer peripherals, design decisions had to be made now - in order to save the cost of redesign/re-tooling, especially considering it being a new process.
No, I think it's great. There will be developers who will come up with good implementations.
The idea of ports on Express cards and the older PC cards have been around for a while. I don't know of any symptomatic problems here, do you?
Primarily snapping off the ports or getting them caught on something. Ever use one of the old ethernet pccards? Either you have a delicate port on the side of your laptop or this annoying adapter cable that likes to fall out a lot.
Is it a HUGE issue? No, but it screws with aesthetics and functionality in comparison to normal ports. It's great for expansion but no so hot for everyday use of a USB port.
You COULD go with a non-standard sized expresscard slot that is deeper and able to have embedded ports. That doesn't help you much though if you need a normal USB port AND want to have a normal expresscard in there...like a 3G modem. So you keep the regular 2xUSB and ethernet and add a expresscard slot for any other use so 90% of the users never have to muck with the thing. Arguably you can dump ethernet too.
Perhaps you can afford to dump all ports in favor of a single slot once wireless usb becomes common place and a travel sized hub is available.
Primarily snapping off the ports or getting them caught on something. Ever use one of the old ethernet pccards? Either you have a delicate port on the side of your laptop or this annoying adapter cable that likes to fall out a lot.
Is it a HUGE issue? No, but it screws with aesthetics and functionality in comparison to normal ports. It's great for expansion but no so hot for everyday use of a USB port.
You COULD go with a non-standard sized expresscard slot that is deeper and able to have embedded ports. That doesn't help you much though if you need a normal USB port AND want to have a normal expresscard in there...like a 3G modem. So you keep the regular 2xUSB and ethernet and add a expresscard slot for any other use so 90% of the users never have to muck with the thing. Arguably you can dump ethernet too.
Perhaps you can afford to dump all ports in favor of a single slot once wireless usb becomes common place and a travel sized hub is available.
If the breakage problem issue was a large one, then I could agree. But the truth is that I also see port breakage with standard ports, when someone either pulls the cable improperly, or the computer itself. I don't know if the expressport designs have much more of a problem with their ports.
But, I can say one thing about it. I'd rather have to replace a cheap Express card because of a broken port than have to send my computer in because of a broken port.
As far as esthetics goes, that's in the eye of the beholder, as it's said. I wouldn't keep it in all the time, only when I needed it. I would keep them with the cables, no loss issue for me, as I'm pretty good about that.
The advantage of having the ability to add any port I wanted to, no matter what Apple was thinking, would, by far, outweigh any disadvantages it would add, which, to me right now, seem to be minor.
One more thing, as someone sometimes says.
The issue of esthetics is interesting in this context. We see here how many guys complain that Apple is concerned too much with esthetics, and not enough with practicality. Now I see two guys saying that this idea wouldn't be esthetic enough, even though it would be practical (other that the POSSIBLE breakage issue).
We can see how Apple must tread that fine line. They can't make everyone happy at the same time.
Ummmmm, i think its time to make this thread a Sticky...... its never going to end!
Or rather, lock the thread.
This will be an issue until 1) Apple brings back FW; 2) No new FW400 accessories are made and enough time has passed that people have upgraded their FW accessories to USB; 3) FWoE gets made; 4) Apocalypse.