Dude. Have you ever been to smomeones house, smoke free and have a look at their fans. Olooks just like that. As I said earilier l, it's been reported than living in LA during the summer is like 3 times WORSE than smoking. I mean, crap, they have hazard day ALERTS TO STAY INDOORS. So living in LA IN THE SUMMER is like smoking. Nice
I meanm, I've seen cars that sit for two days and it's covered in soot iike there was a fire during the summer. And then of course there are pets. Where and when dId this happen anyway????
Most production lots and cabanas have smoke everywhere and especially the hollywood hiils.
In the first place just because it isn't illegal now in your country, doesn't mean it won't be soon, or isn't be already in more civilised places. In the second place, your argument about why a smoker smokes is based on the idea of free will when in fact smoking is a simple drug addiction. It has nothing to do with making rational choices or free will.
Smokers are drug addicts. That's just a simple fact. They have no more control over smoking than a crackhead does over doing crack or a wino has over drinking.
Third, all your analogies are junk in that laying around in the sun, eating red meat etc., are not only a choice, they are choices that don't affect anyone else.
Smoke is poison (another fact). Second hand smoke has been proven many times over to be just as bad as firsthand smoke, and third hand smoke is implicated in the latest research as well. No one has the right to poison those around them. They never did. We just weren't sufficiently aware of how dangerous smoking was before.
Drug addicts don't have the same rights as normal people and there is no "inalienable right" to do drugs. Even if there were, a person's human rights end where another's begin. A person may have the right to shoot a gun, but they don't have the right to shoot it at someone else. Even if a smoker had some kind of "right" to smoke, they don't have the right to do it around anyone else.
Smoking will be illegal in public in your lifetime probably. Get used to it.
Well said. Current anti-smoking laws do not go far enough, and I look forward to the day when I no longer have to walk through clouds of toxic fumes on the street from obnoxious smokers, or see children abused by their smoking parents, and so on.
Apple are dead right on this one (which frankly makes a change of late).
Never thought there would come a day a would decide never to buy a mac again but that day has come. When I paid my MacBook Pro they didn't say they couldn't accept my money because it was a biohazard so I wonder why they would consider my notebook a biohazard.
A big fuck you to Steve Jobs! What's next? People who eat meat can't send in their Macs for repair anymore?
oh boy. somebody's grumpy, eh? relax man! have a smoke!
I have nothing but seething rage for people who smoke while walking down the street in front of me and people who absolutely reek of smoke then come into my business and expect me to stand there and hold back my gag reflex while they talk to me about their meaningless existence. If I needed to work on my gag reflex I'd deep throat cocks for a living.
Recreational substance use is supposed to be an occasional activity, not an every-third-fucking-minute-and-in-the-most-intrusive-dosage-form-possible-and-with-an-I'm-entitled-to-do-whatever-the-fuck-I-want-attitude activity.
I'd rate heroin users who use clean injecting equipment and dispose of it thoughtfully above people who smoke around others without consent any day.
I fully agree with Apple here. Smoking kills more than 500,000 people every single year in the USA, more than 500,000 in Europe and more than 3 million worldwide every year. Besides the healthcare costs that could be used for other purposes and the of work hours lost. THIS IS OBSCENE.
I fully agree with Apple here. Smoking kills more than 500,000 people every single year in the USA, more than 500,000 in Europe and more than 3 million worldwide every year. THIS IS OBSCENE.
That it is. However, it is not well appreciated just how toxic "third-hand smoke" really is..
>Particulate matter from tobacco smoke has been proven toxic. According to the National Toxicology Program, these 250 poisonous gases, chemicals, and metals include hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide, butane, ammonia, toluene (found in paint thinners), arsenic, lead, chromium (used to make steel), cadmium (used to make batteries), and polonium-210 (highly radioactive carcinogen). Eleven of the compounds are classified as Group 1 carcinogens, the most dangerous.
This is groundbreaking! I'm all for a drug free world, especialy airbourne ones. And I, if working with repair, would not tolerate working with a smoked computer. Smokers in general has little or no understanding for how bad their favourite drug spreads its toxics around. It's airborne, you know. It's like having a pee area in a pool. Anyone could understand that the pee doesn't stay in that area.
But hey, of course the smoked computers should not be neglected from service. Since a good deal of the population of the world are smokers Apple should be prepared to give them service. Maybe at a separate plant with repair tecnicians dressed for the occasion? They could open it up, "dry clean" it, and then start working with it.
And I, if working with repair, would not tolerate working with a smoked computer.
I am not a smoker (never have been), but smoking is not illegal. I'm in favour of the smoking bans in public places, but the idea of regulation within the home is worrying.
Consider:
20+cig/day = clear health danger. 1cig/week = no clear danger. Therefore a blanket ban on things that can be 'unhealthy/dangerous' would make the following illegal:
1. alcohol
2. all prescription drugs
3. all foods that contain saturated fats or sugars
4. household cleaners (bleach etc) and paints
5. using a computer monitor (especially the glossy ones that SJ pushes on the Mac users)
6. living in a big city (air pollution)
etc etc etc.
So it's rather arbitrary to ban cigarettes on health grounds.
Now for the part that is relevant to this discussion
Computers, and the compounds used in cleaning them as part of a standard repair, contain a host of 'dangerous' substances. Even RoHS compliant solders, should be worked on with a suitable extraction hood according to the manufacturers. Tar is not particularly dangerous in its solid form, nor is it readily absorbed through the skin.
Both isopropanol and ethanol (ordinary alcohol), are suitable solvents for removing tar. The affected PCB could easily have been dipped in an ESD tray with either -OH and placed in an ultrasonic bath and cleaned fully.
The equipment and chemicals involved are more benign that those found in a automotive repair shop. If you brought your Ford truck in for service and was told "Sorry, we can't work on this engine, the insides are all coated with dirt and motor oil and we have to think of our workers"? Normal precautions would not expose the workers in any inordinate health hazard. FWIW I don't own a car either (I could buy a new Merc SLK, cash, tomorrow)
Now, were the computers beyond economical repair? Depends on the failure.
What if my house was really dusty, because I lived in AZ, or corrosive atmosphere due to living near the coast?
That's hilarious. As is the attitude here towards smokers.
Apple should just put out a disclaimer letting people know smoke damage will void their Applecare. I didn't even know about tar buildup in computers, so educating people before they purchase would cover their backs. Although there may be issues for those living with smokers, since they aren't the ones being negligent.
Apple should just put out a disclaimer letting people know smoke damage will void their Applecare. I didn't even know about tar buildup in computers, so educating people before they purchase would cover their backs.
They do. It’s right there in AppleCare coverage legalese and it’s quite clear though I would think common sense would make it obvious that abuse and neglect of your equipment is not covered.
Quote:
Subject to these Terms and Conditions, your Plan (i) covers defects for the Apple- branded product(s) listed in your Planʼs Certificate or Proof of Coverage document
Quote:
[The Plan does not cover damage to the Covered Equipment caused by accident, abuse, neglect, misuse, unauthorized modification, extreme environment, extreme physical or electrical stress or interference, fluctuation or surges of electrical power, lightning, static electricity, fire, acts of God or other external causes
A disclaimer for each in possible incident is silly. It’s clear the warranty is for defects caused by Apple or it’s partners and does not cover mental defects on the part of their users. If it did, then Teckstud wouldn’t even be allowed inside an Apple Store.
The amount of cigarette smoke that would cause such a thing to happen within a period of less than one to three years tells me that this person is a very heavy smoker and they use their computer in a small unventilated area. That isn’t Apple’s responsibility.
If cigarette smoke residue has rendered the unit unsafe as per regulations, then that's that.
there must have been 8 chinese chain smokers in a tiny closed room to make tar appear on the device
wow
Quote:
Originally Posted by OC4Theo
Just quit smoking, it's that simple. Smoking does not do anything for the smoker, so why should anyone who does not smoke work for hours on a product that is potentially hazardous to his or her health.
If you have asthma or in any way allergic to smoking, even buying and reading a used book from a smoking home, can cause you serious health problem. I know a car dealership that charges extra to work on any smoker vehicle.
Quit smoking. The only thing that will happen to you is that you will live longer with less health-related problems. And someone else do not have to suffer because you chose to suffocate your life.
i tried to quit for 35 yrs.
not so easy
i also want so say your book remark is bull
but i have sat on a heavy smokers couch that was cleaned and aired for 2 yrs.
it still stank. so your book remark rings true
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
I don't smoke, but I find your attitude quite unbelievable. Last I checked, it is a perfectly legal activity. If smoking did "nothing" for the smoker -- e.g., give them pleasure -- why would they smoke in the first place? And 'hazardous to health?' People lie around in the sun, eat too much red meat, put too much salt in their food, drive above the speed limit, drive after they've had a drink or two, have unprotected/unsafe sex, don't wash hands enough, etc , etc. Would you ban all such activity?
Just because freedom of action allows many bad habits does not mean we have to accept it or deal with it or them in any way shape or form . We also have rights .
this is your first bad post i have ever read. really bad
i smoked and almost died from throat cancer
smoking is a nasty expensive disease
smokers are drug addicts
playing devils advocate on a debating team is the only reason for this post
shame
Other people will yell you off also .
peace 9
That's a silly analogy. If so, Apple should state upfront that either that a person in that situation would not qualify for Applecare, or they should charge extra. They do neither.
I can see this going to court.
Just because freedom of action allows many bad habits does not mean we have to accept it or deal with it or them in any way shape or form . We also have rights .
this is your first bad post i have ever read. really bad
i smoked and almost died from throat cancer
smoking is a nasty expensive disease
smokers are drug addicts
playing devils advocate on a debating team is the only reason for this post
shame
Other people will yell you off also .
peace 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by iVlad
Smoking Kills!...applecare
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazoobee
This is nonsense.
In the first place just because it isn't illegal now in your country, doesn't mean it won't be soon, or isn't be already in more civilised places. In the second place, your argument about why a smoker smokes is based on the idea of free will when in fact smoking is a simple drug addiction. It has nothing to do with making rational choices or free will.
Smokers are drug addicts. That's just a simple fact. They have no more control over smoking than a crackhead does over doing crack or a wino has over drinking.
Third, all your analogies are junk in that laying around in the sun, eating red meat etc., are not only a choice, they are choices that don't affect anyone else.
Smoke is poison (another fact). Second hand smoke has been proven many times over to be just as bad as firsthand smoke, and third hand smoke is implicated in the latest research as well. No one has the right to poison those around them. They never did. We just weren't sufficiently aware of how dangerous smoking was before.
Drug addicts don't have the same rights as normal people and there is no "inalienable right" to do drugs. Even if there were, a person's human rights end where another's begin. A person may have the right to shoot a gun, but they don't have the right to shoot it at someone else. Even if a smoker had some kind of "right" to smoke, they don't have the right to do it around anyone else.
Smoking will be illegal in public in your lifetime probably. Get used to it.
There are basically two kinds of people posting here: those who have worked on the insides of computers for a living and those who haven't.
While opinions are all over the place amongst those who haven't, everyone with experience repairing computers understands where a policy like this is coming from.
I agree with the person who said that this is probably the result of a lawsuit, most likely elsewhere in the industry. After all, technicians have been handling machines full of toxic buildup for decades. Something triggered this. Maybe OSHA itself.
TAKE AWAY all drugs (legal and illegal; from coffee to heroin, including also alcohol) and the humans will collapse. Why are humans so utterly STUPID is beyond my understanding!
And remember that it is not just you. It is also the environment, the cost to others (including the healthcare system) and last but not least, the cost to the future generations.
Because most of such shit (legal and illegal) will cause mutations not only to the somatic cells (read cancer for you and for others), but also to the germ cells (read diseases for future generations).
They do. It?s right there in AppleCare coverage legalese and it?s quite clear though I would think common sense would make it obvious that abuse and neglect of your equipment is not covered...
I was thinking they should make it more explicit, especially when they're trying to push Applecare onto you at the store or through the phone. They don't really touch on that, we all know most people don't bother reading through the T&Cs. Apple store staff are usually quite good at clearing things up, and warranties are quite misunderstood.
Not likely. They didn't ask whether the customer smoked. The damage from the tar was severe enough to warrant refusal. That means visible evidence was discovered.
If nicotine is on the list of health hazards, then Apple has a case. A proper reply to Apple's position is to discover whether the amount of nicotine found on the PC is sufficient enough to cause harm.
Totally agree. Tobacco is poison and nothing else.
If people want to poison themselves, so be it — until it will be deemed
a prejudice for society at large (as soon as possible).
But they don"t have to poison others.
Anyway, total ban of cigarette smoking is in the pipeline — at least in Europe.
Comments
"Many things" ??? ... Such as?
Dude. Have you ever been to smomeones house, smoke free and have a look at their fans. Olooks just like that. As I said earilier l, it's been reported than living in LA during the summer is like 3 times WORSE than smoking. I mean, crap, they have hazard day ALERTS TO STAY INDOORS. So living in LA IN THE SUMMER is like smoking. Nice
I meanm, I've seen cars that sit for two days and it's covered in soot iike there was a fire during the summer. And then of course there are pets. Where and when dId this happen anyway????
Most production lots and cabanas have smoke everywhere and especially the hollywood hiils.
This is nonsense.
In the first place just because it isn't illegal now in your country, doesn't mean it won't be soon, or isn't be already in more civilised places. In the second place, your argument about why a smoker smokes is based on the idea of free will when in fact smoking is a simple drug addiction. It has nothing to do with making rational choices or free will.
Smokers are drug addicts. That's just a simple fact. They have no more control over smoking than a crackhead does over doing crack or a wino has over drinking.
Third, all your analogies are junk in that laying around in the sun, eating red meat etc., are not only a choice, they are choices that don't affect anyone else.
Smoke is poison (another fact). Second hand smoke has been proven many times over to be just as bad as firsthand smoke, and third hand smoke is implicated in the latest research as well. No one has the right to poison those around them. They never did. We just weren't sufficiently aware of how dangerous smoking was before.
Drug addicts don't have the same rights as normal people and there is no "inalienable right" to do drugs. Even if there were, a person's human rights end where another's begin. A person may have the right to shoot a gun, but they don't have the right to shoot it at someone else. Even if a smoker had some kind of "right" to smoke, they don't have the right to do it around anyone else.
Smoking will be illegal in public in your lifetime probably. Get used to it.
Well said. Current anti-smoking laws do not go far enough, and I look forward to the day when I no longer have to walk through clouds of toxic fumes on the street from obnoxious smokers, or see children abused by their smoking parents, and so on.
Apple are dead right on this one (which frankly makes a change of late).
Never thought there would come a day a would decide never to buy a mac again but that day has come. When I paid my MacBook Pro they didn't say they couldn't accept my money because it was a biohazard so I wonder why they would consider my notebook a biohazard.
A big fuck you to Steve Jobs! What's next? People who eat meat can't send in their Macs for repair anymore?
oh boy. somebody's grumpy, eh? relax man! have a smoke!
Recreational substance use is supposed to be an occasional activity, not an every-third-fucking-minute-and-in-the-most-intrusive-dosage-form-possible-and-with-an-I'm-entitled-to-do-whatever-the-fuck-I-want-attitude activity.
I'd rate heroin users who use clean injecting equipment and dispose of it thoughtfully above people who smoke around others without consent any day.
There I said it.
I fully agree with Apple here. Smoking kills more than 500,000 people every single year in the USA, more than 500,000 in Europe and more than 3 million worldwide every year. THIS IS OBSCENE.
That it is. However, it is not well appreciated just how toxic "third-hand smoke" really is..
>Particulate matter from tobacco smoke has been proven toxic. According to the National Toxicology Program, these 250 poisonous gases, chemicals, and metals include hydrogen cyanide, carbon monoxide, butane, ammonia, toluene (found in paint thinners), arsenic, lead, chromium (used to make steel), cadmium (used to make batteries), and polonium-210 (highly radioactive carcinogen). Eleven of the compounds are classified as Group 1 carcinogens, the most dangerous.
-from ScienceDaily mag.
But hey, of course the smoked computers should not be neglected from service. Since a good deal of the population of the world are smokers Apple should be prepared to give them service. Maybe at a separate plant with repair tecnicians dressed for the occasion? They could open it up, "dry clean" it, and then start working with it.
Drinking isn't illegal. Driving isn't illegal. Mix the two and you have a problem...
Shit the bed!
If smoking does that to the inside of a computer, imagine what it's doing to your lungs?
And I, if working with repair, would not tolerate working with a smoked computer.
I am not a smoker (never have been), but smoking is not illegal. I'm in favour of the smoking bans in public places, but the idea of regulation within the home is worrying.
Consider:
20+cig/day = clear health danger. 1cig/week = no clear danger. Therefore a blanket ban on things that can be 'unhealthy/dangerous' would make the following illegal:
1. alcohol
2. all prescription drugs
3. all foods that contain saturated fats or sugars
4. household cleaners (bleach etc) and paints
5. using a computer monitor (especially the glossy ones that SJ pushes on the Mac users)
6. living in a big city (air pollution)
etc etc etc.
So it's rather arbitrary to ban cigarettes on health grounds.
Now for the part that is relevant to this discussion
Computers, and the compounds used in cleaning them as part of a standard repair, contain a host of 'dangerous' substances. Even RoHS compliant solders, should be worked on with a suitable extraction hood according to the manufacturers. Tar is not particularly dangerous in its solid form, nor is it readily absorbed through the skin.
Both isopropanol and ethanol (ordinary alcohol), are suitable solvents for removing tar. The affected PCB could easily have been dipped in an ESD tray with either -OH and placed in an ultrasonic bath and cleaned fully.
The equipment and chemicals involved are more benign that those found in a automotive repair shop. If you brought your Ford truck in for service and was told "Sorry, we can't work on this engine, the insides are all coated with dirt and motor oil and we have to think of our workers"? Normal precautions would not expose the workers in any inordinate health hazard. FWIW I don't own a car either (I could buy a new Merc SLK, cash, tomorrow)
Now, were the computers beyond economical repair? Depends on the failure.
What if my house was really dusty, because I lived in AZ, or corrosive atmosphere due to living near the coast?
Apple should just put out a disclaimer letting people know smoke damage will void their Applecare. I didn't even know about tar buildup in computers, so educating people before they purchase would cover their backs. Although there may be issues for those living with smokers, since they aren't the ones being negligent.
Apple should just put out a disclaimer letting people know smoke damage will void their Applecare. I didn't even know about tar buildup in computers, so educating people before they purchase would cover their backs.
They do. It’s right there in AppleCare coverage legalese and it’s quite clear though I would think common sense would make it obvious that abuse and neglect of your equipment is not covered.
Subject to these Terms and Conditions, your Plan (i) covers defects for the Apple- branded product(s) listed in your Planʼs Certificate or Proof of Coverage document
[The Plan does not cover damage to the Covered Equipment caused by accident, abuse, neglect, misuse, unauthorized modification, extreme environment, extreme physical or electrical stress or interference, fluctuation or surges of electrical power, lightning, static electricity, fire, acts of God or other external causes
A disclaimer for each in possible incident is silly. It’s clear the warranty is for defects caused by Apple or it’s partners and does not cover mental defects on the part of their users. If it did, then Teckstud wouldn’t even be allowed inside an Apple Store.
The amount of cigarette smoke that would cause such a thing to happen within a period of less than one to three years tells me that this person is a very heavy smoker and they use their computer in a small unventilated area. That isn’t Apple’s responsibility.
ZZzzzzz . . .
Another installment of Strange But True.
If cigarette smoke residue has rendered the unit unsafe as per regulations, then that's that.
there must have been 8 chinese chain smokers in a tiny closed room to make tar appear on the device
wow
Just quit smoking, it's that simple. Smoking does not do anything for the smoker, so why should anyone who does not smoke work for hours on a product that is potentially hazardous to his or her health.
If you have asthma or in any way allergic to smoking, even buying and reading a used book from a smoking home, can cause you serious health problem. I know a car dealership that charges extra to work on any smoker vehicle.
Quit smoking. The only thing that will happen to you is that you will live longer with less health-related problems. And someone else do not have to suffer because you chose to suffocate your life.
i tried to quit for 35 yrs.
not so easy
i also want so say your book remark is bull
but i have sat on a heavy smokers couch that was cleaned and aired for 2 yrs.
it still stank. so your book remark rings true
I don't smoke, but I find your attitude quite unbelievable. Last I checked, it is a perfectly legal activity. If smoking did "nothing" for the smoker -- e.g., give them pleasure -- why would they smoke in the first place? And 'hazardous to health?' People lie around in the sun, eat too much red meat, put too much salt in their food, drive above the speed limit, drive after they've had a drink or two, have unprotected/unsafe sex, don't wash hands enough, etc , etc. Would you ban all such activity?
Just because freedom of action allows many bad habits does not mean we have to accept it or deal with it or them in any way shape or form . We also have rights .
this is your first bad post i have ever read. really bad
i smoked and almost died from throat cancer
smoking is a nasty expensive disease
smokers are drug addicts
playing devils advocate on a debating team is the only reason for this post
shame
Other people will yell you off also .
peace 9
That's a silly analogy. If so, Apple should state upfront that either that a person in that situation would not qualify for Applecare, or they should charge extra. They do neither.
I can see this going to court.
Just because freedom of action allows many bad habits does not mean we have to accept it or deal with it or them in any way shape or form . We also have rights .
this is your first bad post i have ever read. really bad
i smoked and almost died from throat cancer
smoking is a nasty expensive disease
smokers are drug addicts
playing devils advocate on a debating team is the only reason for this post
shame
Other people will yell you off also .
peace 9
Smoking Kills!...applecare
This is nonsense.
In the first place just because it isn't illegal now in your country, doesn't mean it won't be soon, or isn't be already in more civilised places. In the second place, your argument about why a smoker smokes is based on the idea of free will when in fact smoking is a simple drug addiction. It has nothing to do with making rational choices or free will.
Smokers are drug addicts. That's just a simple fact. They have no more control over smoking than a crackhead does over doing crack or a wino has over drinking.
Third, all your analogies are junk in that laying around in the sun, eating red meat etc., are not only a choice, they are choices that don't affect anyone else.
Smoke is poison (another fact). Second hand smoke has been proven many times over to be just as bad as firsthand smoke, and third hand smoke is implicated in the latest research as well. No one has the right to poison those around them. They never did. We just weren't sufficiently aware of how dangerous smoking was before.
Drug addicts don't have the same rights as normal people and there is no "inalienable right" to do drugs. Even if there were, a person's human rights end where another's begin. A person may have the right to shoot a gun, but they don't have the right to shoot it at someone else. Even if a smoker had some kind of "right" to smoke, they don't have the right to do it around anyone else.
Smoking will be illegal in public in your lifetime probably. Get used to it.
great post
While opinions are all over the place amongst those who haven't, everyone with experience repairing computers understands where a policy like this is coming from.
I agree with the person who said that this is probably the result of a lawsuit, most likely elsewhere in the industry. After all, technicians have been handling machines full of toxic buildup for decades. Something triggered this. Maybe OSHA itself.
There are basically two kinds of people posting here: those who have worked on the insides of computers for a living and those who haven?t.
"There are only 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't?
And remember that it is not just you. It is also the environment, the cost to others (including the healthcare system) and last but not least, the cost to the future generations.
Because most of such shit (legal and illegal) will cause mutations not only to the somatic cells (read cancer for you and for others), but also to the germ cells (read diseases for future generations).
As said, this is amazing!
Water is also on OSHA's list. Water is toxic.
http://www.osha.gov/dts/chemicalsamp...oc/chmn_W.html
Where?
They do. It?s right there in AppleCare coverage legalese and it?s quite clear though I would think common sense would make it obvious that abuse and neglect of your equipment is not covered...
I was thinking they should make it more explicit, especially when they're trying to push Applecare onto you at the store or through the phone. They don't really touch on that, we all know most people don't bother reading through the T&Cs. Apple store staff are usually quite good at clearing things up, and warranties are quite misunderstood.
Dude. Have you ever been to smomeones house, smoke free and have a look at their fans. Olooks just like that.
No it doesn't. That stuff is most certainly NOT from dust. That is some serious buildup and it doesn't look safe. At all. I wouldn't touch that thing.
Not likely. They didn't ask whether the customer smoked. The damage from the tar was severe enough to warrant refusal. That means visible evidence was discovered.
If nicotine is on the list of health hazards, then Apple has a case. A proper reply to Apple's position is to discover whether the amount of nicotine found on the PC is sufficient enough to cause harm.
Totally agree. Tobacco is poison and nothing else.
If people want to poison themselves, so be it — until it will be deemed
a prejudice for society at large (as soon as possible).
But they don"t have to poison others.
Anyway, total ban of cigarette smoking is in the pipeline — at least in Europe.
I can't wait for it.
Non Smokers of the World, Unite.