I have to admit that the document is concerning (although not linking arafat directly to the brigade). There have been claims that the document is false. One arab site claims the whole thing is a funeral bill claiming promised PA support to funerals for members killed in israeli attacks, from before the Al-aqsa even took up suicide attacks.
I have no idea what is the truth here, so I'll draw my conclusions when more (civil) investigators have a look at it.
One side here has the power (both military, financially and intellectually) to really change the situation. To make real peace, not just endless negotiations and toothless compromises, but It's will cost Israel a lot.
The other side is weak. They can only act the way they do. How anyone can believe that any of the leaders can actually stop the violence is beyond me...
WOW. Now that is racism. "They can only act the way they do". What the hell is that supposed to mean?
(i was just about to retire it's so late, but i want to reply)
i appreciate the fact that you are saying that both sides are guilty, and that you are not taking a side, that is a step forward, and believe me if you weren't taking sides i wouldn't have either.
but really you are.
i was with you all along, till you started with: how can you explain that there are 4 palestinians killed for every 1 israeli...
and then i knew you weren't sincere, because this is by no means a valid claim. especially not from someone who presents himself as caring for human rights.
had there been more Israelies dead would you feel better??? (i'm sure the answer is no, but that's what this kind of a statement implies)
of course the forces are not equal, of course the occupation was bad (as long as it lasted, mind you Oslo agreement did change a lot of things) but what is happening now is scary and you cannot ignore that.
maybe when you think about israel you imagine Norway- a beautiful vast land, peaceful with it's neighbours, rich and properous, but israel is far from that unfortunately israel has been at war form day one, Arab countries- and we are talking about 22 of them!! never acknowledged the state of israel, and what the Arab world is doing now is channeling all this hatred and old rivalry through the Palestinians, backing them up, funding their terror instead of sunding their hospitals and schools!! is this not tragic?
now of course israel has made mistakes regarding palestinians, there was the vanity in building settlements, there was the mistake of not seeing all of this coming, but please do not make the mistake and look at Isra`el as Golyath, in the general context it is a very small and very vulnerable state trying to exist. if they had put all their energy into having an independant state, they would have had it by now because there is no person in the wolrd who doesn't think they should have one. but instead they invest their energy in fighting against Israel, and so they loose and Israel looses, everyone looses. and that's the shame.
anyway good night to you, and i hope events will surprise us both for the better
Still the numbers say that there are 5 palestinians dead for every israeli, and that 40 % of them are childern and youths. How do you explain this?
Maybe the simplest answer is the correct one. The IDF shoots at people who shoot at them (or throw rocks). Shooting at Israeli military personnel is condoned and encouraged by the adults. So more kids get killed. And more pictures of dead kids get circulated around the world creating sympathy and this benefits the Palistinian cause.
The palistinians need to stop pussyfooting and using cowardly methods of trying to liberate themselves. A formal war is better than this tit-for-tat mini war.
<strong>I have to admit that the document is concerning (although not linking arafat directly to the brigade). There have been claims that the document is false. One arab site claims the whole thing is a funeral bill claiming promised PA support to funerals for members killed in israeli attacks, from before the Al-aqsa even took up suicide attacks.
I have no idea what is the truth here, so I'll draw my conclusions when more (civil) investigators have a look at it.
I didn't say I'm not taking side. Ofcourse I am. I'm just saying that all israelis are not on the other side, and all palestinians are certainly not on my side. I'd rather talk right and wrong instead of palestinian and israeli.
The death rate is from<a href="http://www.btselem.org"; target="_blank">BT'Selem.org</a> an israeli (jewish) human rights group. They have the best independent source on the deaths on both sides.
What concerns me is that the israeli victims seem to get so much more attention than the palestinians.
The Oslo agreement was not an end to occupation, it was only an agreement to pull out of some part and then negotiate more.
The arab countries are now offering to recognize Israel, and I'm quite shocked by Sharons response...
And the whole idea that Israel is small and weak has to end. Its been the justification of too much wrong too long. Isreal is strong now. It has one of the best armies in the world. more F16 than any other nation exept the US more tanks than many european nations put together, and the bomb... please snap out of it... The tide changed a long time ago. Isreal turned from beeing the treathened to the threathing sometime around 1966. At least thats how most of the world outside Israel sees it.
Your very welcome to discuss the way forward too!
Concerning Jenin the contrast between BBC and Haaretz is striking, but one can only hope the best...
And Killa, I first brought up South Africa as an example of a working peace, remember?
Just thought someone might be interested in this, this guy used to be the chief US diplomat to the Israeli Palestinian negotiations during the Clinton era...taken from the NY Times if I recall correctly...
December 4, 2001
Can Arafat Stop the Violence?
By DENNIS ROSS
Join a Discussion on Today's Editorials
ASHINGTON -- Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in response to three bloody attacks by Hamas over the weekend, has said Israel is engaged in a "war against terror." Missiles fired early yesterday on the heliport of Yasir Arafat, chairman of the Palestinian Authority, may have been just the first shots in this new war. Saeb Erakat, the authority's chief negotiator, said he believes Mr. Sharon has made simply "a declaration of war."
What this war is, precisely, remains to be seen, but it could well be a war against Yasir Arafat, whom Mr. Sharon on Monday described as being "responsible for everything that is going on." Mr. Arafat, now 72, has devoted his life to making the world recognize Palestinians as a people and has long been the public face for his people's cause. Unless he can respond forcefully to the current challenge, he will probably see the central aspiration of his life's work ? securing independence for Palestinians ? destroyed.
Does Mr. Arafat have the power and will to head off what both sides seem to consider a war? In February 1996, four Palestinian bombers struck in Israel over nine days. Mr. Arafat acted decisively against Hamas and Islamic Jihad. He arrested their leaders and attacked their infrastructures.
He acted because he felt threatened. He knew that the cause of Palestine was being discredited. He feared that Hamas and Islamic Jihad had become far more powerful than he had realized ? and could attack him as well as Israel. His survival depended on making clear that there was only one authority; for a few months, he demonstrated just that.
He must demonstrate it again today. It will be more difficult than it was in 1996. The Palestinian public will not be sympathetic to a decisive crackdown. At that time, after the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Israeli withdrawals from the West Bank, there was sympathy among Palestinians for Israel. Today, after 15 months of an intifada in which Palestinian casualties have been high and the public has lived under Israeli siege, there is almost no sympathy left.
Yet Mr. Arafat must act. For 15 months he has allowed his territory to be a haven for those who attack Israelis. They have been free to plan and organize, to build their bombs and recruit their bombers. Despite every commitment he has made to renounce violence and terror, he has shown a complete tolerance for both, releasing suicide bombers from jail and lying about it.
This has to stop. It is true that Mr. Arafat is weaker than he has been, particularly because he has chosen not to lead. He offers no vision or strategy for his people. Palestinians have declining confidence that he can offer any pathway forward. They resent the corruption of the Palestinian Authority and see increasing fragmentation and hopelessness in the West Bank and Gaza. Even Mr. Arafat's grip on his own faction, Fatah, and its armed Tanzim militia has weakened ? and he will depend on the Tanzim fighters, as well as Palestinian Authority security officers, in any struggle with Hamas.
Yet the question for Mr. Arafat is not merely one of power in the moment. It is also a question of will. The situation is reaching the point where perception creates reality. If Mr. Arafat chooses to lead vigorously, he can re-create the reality of his own power. Of course, he might fail. But not making a choice now is itself a prescription for failure with his own people, with the Israelis and with the international community.
Half measures, Mr. Arafat's stock in trade, will no longer work. America's capacity to influence the Sharon government, much less restrain it, will disappear if there is not an unmistakable decision on Mr. Arafat's part to declare war on Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
Now, at last, he must decide that the Palestinian Authority will not be a safe haven for terrorists. He must stop glorifying suicide bombers by calling them martyrs. He must demonstrate that nothing justifies terror. Ultimately, he will have to make it clear to Palestinians that their aspirations were nearly achieved last year at the negotiating table and that the intifada and suicidal attacks have imperiled the Palestinian cause.
To a greater extent than ever, Mr. Arafat's power among Palestinians comes from the fact that the international community still confers on him the authority to speak for Palestinians. By not acting, he endangers his own power and increases the likelihood that splinter groups will no longer see any advantage in taking directives from him.
President Bush should convey to Mr. Arafat that if we do not see concrete acts within the coming week that spell the end of his safe haven policy, we will suspend our relations with him and the Palestinian Authority. A Palestinian war on Palestinian terrorists is the only way to save the Palestinian Authority and re-establish the core premise of peacemaking: security for Israelis; for Palestinians, an end to Israeli control of their lives. That is what we must tell Arab leaders in the region, too. If they want to help the Palestinians ? if they want our help to promote peace ? terror against Israel must stop. Mr. Arafat can no longer avoid his "moment of truth," as Secretary of State Colin Powell put it Sunday. Mr. Arafat's Arab supporters will have to tell him that, too, while there is still time.
Dennis Ross, envoy to the Middle East in the Clinton administration, is a fellow at Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
<strong>from<a href="http://www.btselem.org"; target="_blank">BT'Selem.org</a> an israeli (jewish) human rights group. They have the best independent source on the deaths on both sides.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, Wrong again dude !!! according btselem ( which I know very well thank you ...) the numbers are as follows:
from october 2000 to 14.4.2002
total Israelis killed: 437
total Palestinians killed 1191
Thats not 1 to 5 ( not unless you would twist the facts just so that you can back you point up....)
Just thinking about Maya's point though about the basic ugliness of this comparison... makes me want to puke that u use a false pretext like wrong numbers of dead people to justify one side or the other.
New, you are not winning this argument except in your own mind. This is getting nowhere for you as you keep saying the same things no matter what anyone tells you or links you to. I have noticed that you read articles and then say, "Hmmm, interesting. Too bad only IDF was quoted. Therefore I cannot believe it." So the IDF cannot tell the truth even once in your eyes? I have not been studying this for very long, mostly passive observance, but as time goes on I look closer and I don't like what I see. There was a time I thought Israel should have just gotten out of the West Bank and Gaza. After all, the would stop the "war" right? Then they mostly did, and it did not stop, it escalated. And you completely refuse to see that or believe it. So you don't want to believe that Israel might be justified for their "occupation". I do not see it as an occupation anymore. At this point, the Palestinians forfeited their rights to that land. First by rejecting the offer to get it back, then by using terrorism to try to take back by force that which was offered to them freely at one time. They have show that if you give them an inch they will use it to stage a bombing to try to get two more inches. Then people such as yourself cry foul when Israel slaps them back over the line and takes back their inch.
BTW. I am still waiting for that updated charter where Israel is not supposed to be eliminated anymore. Any progress on that anyone?
[quote] New, you are not winning this argument except in your own mind. <hr></blockquote>
No, I can see how anything I might say, does not have any effect on you. While you might hope to win the argument, I'll settle on beeing a good counterweight to all the people like you here...
[quote] OK, Wrong again dude !!! according btselem ( which I know very well thank you ...) the numbers are as follows:
from october 2000 to 14.4.2002
total Israelis killed: 437
total Palestinians killed 1191 <hr></blockquote>
Well the numbers differ by how you count them. sI was refering to civilian casualties. Where the numbers are a bit different, still the difference is dramatic... And this only proves that palestinians in dead are better at targeting millitary than the israelis...
Well I can no longer be silent without saying what I think, though I am sure I will be branded anti this and that and cold hearted, but here goes...to condense all this middle east crap that is going on ( and I ignorantly include any and all that reside in this region) i think the USA should keep the hell out of it and let them kill themselves to the point of extinction if they want. This bs fighting over land and God and Ala and whoever the hell else they think is the supreme ruler is their buisiness, and has been for thousands of years. Who are we (the rest of the world) to intervene? Yes I know some will state the UN, well we (USA) should get the hell out of this club too. Why the USA has to be the police force, peace keeper, food provider of the world is beyond me. Let them duke it out and whoever wins gets the ****in' land. War always has been and always will be as long as greed and hate exist, the weak will succumb to the strong, it is the same as nature, the strong survive. Cold , callus and cruel I know, but at least I have the balls to admit it.
<strong>No, I can see how anything I might say, does not have any effect on you. While you might hope to win the argument, I'll settle on beeing a good counterweight to all the people like you here...</strong><hr></blockquote>
People like me? I hope youare merely referring to the people that do not believe as you do that Israel is the creators of the problem as you seem to think they are. Otherwise we are starting to dive into even worse generlizations...
[quote]<strong>Well the numbers differ by how you count them. sI was refering to civilian casualties. Where the numbers are a bit different, still the difference is dramatic... And this only proves that palestinians in dead are better at targeting millitary than the israelis... </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see where you are drwing your conclusions from, but it appears to be some nether region. All this proves is that Israel is far better at protecting it's citzens from attack and that the Palestinian terrorists are inept in carrying out their missions.
I tell you what, see if you can get numbers on how many Israeli soldiers vs civilians have been killed by the terrorists? I will discuss more with you if you can provide this information with a link. I am not sure where I would look for it myself.
Also still waiting for that charter update. It has been almost a week, surely if it exists you can find it... Lord knows I have tried.
[quote]People like me? I hope youare merely referring to the people that do not believe as you do that Israel is the creators of the problem as you seem to think they are. Otherwise we are starting to dive into even worse generlizations... <hr></blockquote>
Yes, I am referring to people who defend anything Israel does. Why would you think I was talking about anything else?
[quote] I tell you what, see if you can get numbers on how many Israeli soldiers vs civilians have been killed by the terrorists?<hr></blockquote>
As there is an occupation going on. The killing of israeli millitary can hardly be called terrorism. No matter how horrible it is these killings are. My point was that there has been a lot of talk about how the palestinian millitants target civilians (which I btw, think is totally unacceptable). But the numbers show that the Israeli millitary have targeted over twice as many civilians as policemen or military activist. And five times as many civilians as the palestinian terrorist.
This does not make the suicide bombings any less horrible. But it does put some perspective on how "surgical" the IDF operations are.
[quote] Also still waiting for that charter update. It has been almost a week, surely if it exists you can find it... Lord knows I have tried.<hr></blockquote>
I did not proimse a charter since there is no current charter in effect. I promised further documentation on the stance of the PLO, like this:
All of these doucuments contains concrete reference to a palestine state in the occupied territories only. and the two last important documents also contains direct reference to the nullification on the points of the charter calling for the destuction Israel and the ongoing work to revise the charter.
I really can't see how you failed to find any of these documents. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Why don't you show me where my historic claims are untrue, instead of degrading this discussion into silly namecalling. Or is it to late at night for you to bother saying something useful?
Read my post on this on page 14 of this thread. You?ll find the analogy edifying.
mika.
P.S. Those last links you provided are a real joke. Do you actually read what you link? ... "met in a special session on 26 April 1996 to consider the issue of amending the Palestine National Charter and adopted the following decision" ... "The participants reaffirmed, by a show of hands, their support for the peace process and the above-mentioned decisions of the Executive Committee and the Central Council regarding the Charter."
6 years later... where is the amended Charter? Right. Like everything else coming out of Arab mouths - Subterfuge.
[quote] He is a hypocrite, that?s true enough. But I suspect he is also much more than that. David Irving comes to mind. If you examine the methodology, you?ll recognize the similarity. <hr></blockquote>
Why don't you explain my methodology and my "hidden agenda" then. I'd really like to know.
Your statment on how I protect Arafat at all costs ss pure BS. I'm asking for concrete, objective evidence. Not propaganda from millitary sources. I have no love for Arafat. But I suspect he is far better than the alternatives right now. If I could choose myself, I'd rather have someone like Hanah Nashrawi as a palestinian leader. But as long as Israel is continuing there aggressive occupation, even the hope of new a palestinian election is vague. (And with the current hate and frustration, I bet they would vote even more stupid than the israelis did in their last election right now.)
In my posts I am mainly concerned with arguing for the rights of the palestinian people. Both the historic ones and the basic human. And putting focus on the unaccepable israeli policies towards the palestinians.
I also hope we can continue on discussing some scenarios for solutions to the conflict. I hope people like Gobble Gobble and Anders might come back here and post some constructive thoughts. Outsider too ofcourse.
It is also good to have people like you around to ballance the discussion. But you should rally start to talk about the Middle East and stop calling me names...
But it does put some perspective on how "surgical" the IDF operations are.
Next time Israel needs to retaliate for the mass murder of its civilians by Arafat and his gang, why not call on the Americans and their B-52's. If it?s good for the Americans, it should be good for the Israelis.
Comments
I have no idea what is the truth here, so I'll draw my conclusions when more (civil) investigators have a look at it.
Concerning the ambulance. I remember the story, I also dug up the <a href="http://www.palestinercs.org/Press Releases/mar_28_2002_press_statement.htm" target="_blank">press release</a>. Here too I think an indipendent investigation is the best way to find out if there is any truth to this.
As long as the IDF is the only source I'm a sceptic.
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
One side here has the power (both military, financially and intellectually) to really change the situation. To make real peace, not just endless negotiations and toothless compromises, but It's will cost Israel a lot.
The other side is weak. They can only act the way they do. How anyone can believe that any of the leaders can actually stop the violence is beyond me...
WOW. Now that is racism. "They can only act the way they do". What the hell is that supposed to mean?
mika.
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
(i was just about to retire it's so late, but i want to reply)
i appreciate the fact that you are saying that both sides are guilty, and that you are not taking a side, that is a step forward, and believe me if you weren't taking sides i wouldn't have either.
but really you are.
i was with you all along, till you started with: how can you explain that there are 4 palestinians killed for every 1 israeli...
and then i knew you weren't sincere, because this is by no means a valid claim. especially not from someone who presents himself as caring for human rights.
had there been more Israelies dead would you feel better??? (i'm sure the answer is no, but that's what this kind of a statement implies)
of course the forces are not equal, of course the occupation was bad (as long as it lasted, mind you Oslo agreement did change a lot of things) but what is happening now is scary and you cannot ignore that.
maybe when you think about israel you imagine Norway- a beautiful vast land, peaceful with it's neighbours, rich and properous, but israel is far from that unfortunately israel has been at war form day one, Arab countries- and we are talking about 22 of them!! never acknowledged the state of israel, and what the Arab world is doing now is channeling all this hatred and old rivalry through the Palestinians, backing them up, funding their terror instead of sunding their hospitals and schools!! is this not tragic?
now of course israel has made mistakes regarding palestinians, there was the vanity in building settlements, there was the mistake of not seeing all of this coming, but please do not make the mistake and look at Isra`el as Golyath, in the general context it is a very small and very vulnerable state trying to exist. if they had put all their energy into having an independant state, they would have had it by now because there is no person in the wolrd who doesn't think they should have one. but instead they invest their energy in fighting against Israel, and so they loose and Israel looses, everyone looses. and that's the shame.
anyway good night to you, and i hope events will surprise us both for the better
Maybe the simplest answer is the correct one. The IDF shoots at people who shoot at them (or throw rocks). Shooting at Israeli military personnel is condoned and encouraged by the adults. So more kids get killed. And more pictures of dead kids get circulated around the world creating sympathy and this benefits the Palistinian cause.
The palistinians need to stop pussyfooting and using cowardly methods of trying to liberate themselves. A formal war is better than this tit-for-tat mini war.
<strong>I have to admit that the document is concerning (although not linking arafat directly to the brigade). There have been claims that the document is false. One arab site claims the whole thing is a funeral bill claiming promised PA support to funerals for members killed in israeli attacks, from before the Al-aqsa even took up suicide attacks.
I have no idea what is the truth here, so I'll draw my conclusions when more (civil) investigators have a look at it.
Concerning the ambulance. I remember the story, I also dug up the <a href="http://www.palestinercs.org/Press Releases/mar_28_2002_press_statement.htm" target="_blank">press release</a>. Here too I think an indipendent investigation is the best way to find out if there is any truth to this.
As long as the IDF is the only source I'm a sceptic.
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: New ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well then how about this ?
<a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=153511&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=153511" target="_blank">http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=153511&contrassID=2&subContrass ID=3&sbSubContrassID=0&listSrc=Y&itemNo=153511</a>
I didn't say I'm not taking side. Ofcourse I am. I'm just saying that all israelis are not on the other side, and all palestinians are certainly not on my side. I'd rather talk right and wrong instead of palestinian and israeli.
The death rate is from<a href="http://www.btselem.org"; target="_blank">BT'Selem.org</a> an israeli (jewish) human rights group. They have the best independent source on the deaths on both sides.
What concerns me is that the israeli victims seem to get so much more attention than the palestinians.
The Oslo agreement was not an end to occupation, it was only an agreement to pull out of some part and then negotiate more.
The arab countries are now offering to recognize Israel, and I'm quite shocked by Sharons response...
And the whole idea that Israel is small and weak has to end. Its been the justification of too much wrong too long. Isreal is strong now. It has one of the best armies in the world. more F16 than any other nation exept the US more tanks than many european nations put together, and the bomb... please snap out of it...
Your very welcome to discuss the way forward too!
Concerning Jenin the contrast between BBC and Haaretz is striking, but one can only hope the best...
And Killa, I first brought up South Africa as an example of a working peace, remember?
December 4, 2001
Can Arafat Stop the Violence?
By DENNIS ROSS
Join a Discussion on Today's Editorials
ASHINGTON -- Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, in response to three bloody attacks by Hamas over the weekend, has said Israel is engaged in a "war against terror." Missiles fired early yesterday on the heliport of Yasir Arafat, chairman of the Palestinian Authority, may have been just the first shots in this new war. Saeb Erakat, the authority's chief negotiator, said he believes Mr. Sharon has made simply "a declaration of war."
What this war is, precisely, remains to be seen, but it could well be a war against Yasir Arafat, whom Mr. Sharon on Monday described as being "responsible for everything that is going on." Mr. Arafat, now 72, has devoted his life to making the world recognize Palestinians as a people and has long been the public face for his people's cause. Unless he can respond forcefully to the current challenge, he will probably see the central aspiration of his life's work ? securing independence for Palestinians ? destroyed.
Does Mr. Arafat have the power and will to head off what both sides seem to consider a war? In February 1996, four Palestinian bombers struck in Israel over nine days. Mr. Arafat acted decisively against Hamas and Islamic Jihad. He arrested their leaders and attacked their infrastructures.
He acted because he felt threatened. He knew that the cause of Palestine was being discredited. He feared that Hamas and Islamic Jihad had become far more powerful than he had realized ? and could attack him as well as Israel. His survival depended on making clear that there was only one authority; for a few months, he demonstrated just that.
He must demonstrate it again today. It will be more difficult than it was in 1996. The Palestinian public will not be sympathetic to a decisive crackdown. At that time, after the assassination of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin and Israeli withdrawals from the West Bank, there was sympathy among Palestinians for Israel. Today, after 15 months of an intifada in which Palestinian casualties have been high and the public has lived under Israeli siege, there is almost no sympathy left.
Yet Mr. Arafat must act. For 15 months he has allowed his territory to be a haven for those who attack Israelis. They have been free to plan and organize, to build their bombs and recruit their bombers. Despite every commitment he has made to renounce violence and terror, he has shown a complete tolerance for both, releasing suicide bombers from jail and lying about it.
This has to stop. It is true that Mr. Arafat is weaker than he has been, particularly because he has chosen not to lead. He offers no vision or strategy for his people. Palestinians have declining confidence that he can offer any pathway forward. They resent the corruption of the Palestinian Authority and see increasing fragmentation and hopelessness in the West Bank and Gaza. Even Mr. Arafat's grip on his own faction, Fatah, and its armed Tanzim militia has weakened ? and he will depend on the Tanzim fighters, as well as Palestinian Authority security officers, in any struggle with Hamas.
Yet the question for Mr. Arafat is not merely one of power in the moment. It is also a question of will. The situation is reaching the point where perception creates reality. If Mr. Arafat chooses to lead vigorously, he can re-create the reality of his own power. Of course, he might fail. But not making a choice now is itself a prescription for failure with his own people, with the Israelis and with the international community.
Half measures, Mr. Arafat's stock in trade, will no longer work. America's capacity to influence the Sharon government, much less restrain it, will disappear if there is not an unmistakable decision on Mr. Arafat's part to declare war on Hamas and Islamic Jihad.
Now, at last, he must decide that the Palestinian Authority will not be a safe haven for terrorists. He must stop glorifying suicide bombers by calling them martyrs. He must demonstrate that nothing justifies terror. Ultimately, he will have to make it clear to Palestinians that their aspirations were nearly achieved last year at the negotiating table and that the intifada and suicidal attacks have imperiled the Palestinian cause.
To a greater extent than ever, Mr. Arafat's power among Palestinians comes from the fact that the international community still confers on him the authority to speak for Palestinians. By not acting, he endangers his own power and increases the likelihood that splinter groups will no longer see any advantage in taking directives from him.
President Bush should convey to Mr. Arafat that if we do not see concrete acts within the coming week that spell the end of his safe haven policy, we will suspend our relations with him and the Palestinian Authority. A Palestinian war on Palestinian terrorists is the only way to save the Palestinian Authority and re-establish the core premise of peacemaking: security for Israelis; for Palestinians, an end to Israeli control of their lives. That is what we must tell Arab leaders in the region, too. If they want to help the Palestinians ? if they want our help to promote peace ? terror against Israel must stop. Mr. Arafat can no longer avoid his "moment of truth," as Secretary of State Colin Powell put it Sunday. Mr. Arafat's Arab supporters will have to tell him that, too, while there is still time.
Dennis Ross, envoy to the Middle East in the Clinton administration, is a fellow at Washington Institute for Near East Policy.
"
[ 04-18-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong>from<a href="http://www.btselem.org"; target="_blank">BT'Selem.org</a> an israeli (jewish) human rights group. They have the best independent source on the deaths on both sides.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, Wrong again dude !!! according btselem ( which I know very well thank you ...) the numbers are as follows:
from october 2000 to 14.4.2002
total Israelis killed: 437
total Palestinians killed 1191
Thats not 1 to 5 ( not unless you would twist the facts just so that you can back you point up....)
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Just thinking about Maya's point though about the basic ugliness of this comparison... makes me want to puke that u use a false pretext like wrong numbers of dead people to justify one side or the other.
BTW. I am still waiting for that updated charter where Israel is not supposed to be eliminated anymore. Any progress on that anyone?
No, I can see how anything I might say, does not have any effect on you. While you might hope to win the argument, I'll settle on beeing a good counterweight to all the people like you here...
[quote] OK, Wrong again dude !!! according btselem ( which I know very well thank you ...) the numbers are as follows:
from october 2000 to 14.4.2002
total Israelis killed: 437
total Palestinians killed 1191 <hr></blockquote>
Well the numbers differ by how you count them. sI was refering to civilian casualties. Where the numbers are a bit different, still the difference is dramatic... And this only proves that palestinians in dead are better at targeting millitary than the israelis...
[ 04-19-2002: Message edited by: New ]</p>
<strong>No, I can see how anything I might say, does not have any effect on you. While you might hope to win the argument, I'll settle on beeing a good counterweight to all the people like you here...</strong><hr></blockquote>
People like me? I hope youare merely referring to the people that do not believe as you do that Israel is the creators of the problem as you seem to think they are. Otherwise we are starting to dive into even worse generlizations...
[quote]<strong>Well the numbers differ by how you count them. sI was refering to civilian casualties. Where the numbers are a bit different, still the difference is dramatic... And this only proves that palestinians in dead are better at targeting millitary than the israelis...
I don't see where you are drwing your conclusions from, but it appears to be some nether region. All this proves is that Israel is far better at protecting it's citzens from attack and that the Palestinian terrorists are inept in carrying out their missions.
I tell you what, see if you can get numbers on how many Israeli soldiers vs civilians have been killed by the terrorists? I will discuss more with you if you can provide this information with a link. I am not sure where I would look for it myself.
Also still waiting for that charter update. It has been almost a week, surely if it exists you can find it... Lord knows I have tried.
Yes, I am referring to people who defend anything Israel does. Why would you think I was talking about anything else?
[quote] I tell you what, see if you can get numbers on how many Israeli soldiers vs civilians have been killed by the terrorists?<hr></blockquote>
As there is an occupation going on. The killing of israeli millitary can hardly be called terrorism. No matter how horrible it is these killings are. My point was that there has been a lot of talk about how the palestinian millitants target civilians (which I btw, think is totally unacceptable). But the numbers show that the Israeli millitary have targeted over twice as many civilians as policemen or military activist. And five times as many civilians as the palestinian terrorist.
This does not make the suicide bombings any less horrible. But it does put some perspective on how "surgical" the IDF operations are.
[quote] Also still waiting for that charter update. It has been almost a week, surely if it exists you can find it... Lord knows I have tried.<hr></blockquote>
I did not proimse a charter since there is no current charter in effect. I promised further documentation on the stance of the PLO, like this:
<a href="http://www.palestine-un.org/plo/pna_one.html"; target="_blank">Official decisions and actions related to the charter (1996)</a>
Then you have your historic doucuments like these:
<a href="http://www.palestine-un.org/peace/c_a.html"; target="_blank">the Camp David framewok (1978)</a>
<a href="http://www.palestine-un.org/peace/m_b.html"; target="_blank">Madrid Conference US letter to the palestinian side.</a>
<a href="http://www.palestine-un.org/peace/sharm.html"; target="_blank">Sharm El-Sheikh Memorandum</a>
<a href="http://www.palestine-un.org/peace/p_k.html"; target="_blank">The Why River Memorandum</a>
All of these doucuments contains concrete reference to a palestine state in the occupied territories only. and the two last important documents also contains direct reference to the nullification on the points of the charter calling for the destuction Israel and the ongoing work to revise the charter.
I really can't see how you failed to find any of these documents. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
mika.
mika.
P.S. Those last links you provided are a real joke. Do you actually read what you link? ... "met in a special session on 26 April 1996 to consider the issue of amending the Palestine National Charter and adopted the following decision" ... "The participants reaffirmed, by a show of hands, their support for the peace process and the above-mentioned decisions of the Executive Committee and the Central Council regarding the Charter."
6 years later... where is the amended Charter? Right. Like everything else coming out of Arab mouths - Subterfuge.
[ 04-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Why don't you explain my methodology and my "hidden agenda" then. I'd really like to know.
Your statment on how I protect Arafat at all costs ss pure BS. I'm asking for concrete, objective evidence. Not propaganda from millitary sources. I have no love for Arafat. But I suspect he is far better than the alternatives right now. If I could choose myself, I'd rather have someone like Hanah Nashrawi as a palestinian leader. But as long as Israel is continuing there aggressive occupation, even the hope of new a palestinian election is vague. (And with the current hate and frustration, I bet they would vote even more stupid than the israelis did in their last election right now.)
In my posts I am mainly concerned with arguing for the rights of the palestinian people. Both the historic ones and the basic human. And putting focus on the unaccepable israeli policies towards the palestinians.
I also hope we can continue on discussing some scenarios for solutions to the conflict. I hope people like Gobble Gobble and Anders might come back here and post some constructive thoughts. Outsider too ofcourse.
It is also good to have people like you around to ballance the discussion. But you should rally start to talk about the Middle East and stop calling me names...
But it does put some perspective on how "surgical" the IDF operations are.
Next time Israel needs to retaliate for the mass murder of its civilians by Arafat and his gang, why not call on the Americans and their B-52's. If it?s good for the Americans, it should be good for the Israelis.
mika.