I've not seen good evidence that he has control over Hamas, Jihad or Al-aqsa, no. But I agree that he has not done nearly enough to stop the attacks. I don't think he is a good leader, but he is the only leader there is to negotiate with. Like it or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL Come on New .... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Interview with the TWAT where he flatly admits to funding Al-Aqsa Brigades who were behind most attacks since last summer...
a funny quote from the interview:
The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades has carried out numerous attacks against military targets and civilians in Israel and in Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. The U.S. State Department designated it as a foreign terrorist organization in March.
"I don't know," Arafat said. "But you know we have condemned this. And not only that, I gave instructions to search who had sent this."
He seemed astonished that the group would even be involved in militant violence. "Al Aqsa Brigade is engaged in terrorism? Give me one, one example."
His funding of Al Aqsa and other such groups should be compared to the U.S. government's welfare program, he said. Many of the group members lost jobs in Israel when hostilities heightened and live in poverty, he said.
"I am proud I am giving help for those who have lost their work in Israel," Arafat said. "If I am giving money, I am proud of it."
LOL is that proof enough for you New ? or is it that famous IDF propaganda machine putting words into Arafat's mouth by remote Zionist nanobots ?
It is totally acceptable for Israel to say they will not negotiate with a man who is a proven liar who has broken every agreement he's has ever signed and who uses aid money given to him by the EU and US ( sums exceeding 0.5 billion $ a year)
on weapons and terrorist infrastructure instead of helping his beleaguered nation
I don't think the Saudi purposal is as dead as it might seem. Allthough Likud definatly made things harder yesterday, I think this plan is hard to disregard. Simple, straightforward and coprehendsible. Even the americans can understand this one.
Modernizing the strucure of the PA is definatly an important issue. What we have seen since Oslo is a terrible example of corruption and incompetence. Democracy doesn't come overnight, but Arafat has utterly failed to delivering the fruits of peace to his people (except a chosen few that is).
People like Hanan Ashrawi left the PA government because of this.
Arafat only recently regain some of his former popularity with the palestinian people by finally standing up to Israel at Camp David and Taba, and more recently by not giving in during the siege of his Ramallah compund.
But when Israel and the US start talking about reforming the PA without even having Palestinian representatives present, it get rediculous. Getting the EU to discuss this matter directly with the palestinians would be a very good move.
To killa:
[quote]If you read my post, you'd see that I don't have the article at hand, but I'll get it.
Yet, you are able to quote precisely all these facts and figures. I?m sure the Arab propaganda manuals came very handy on this occasion.<hr></blockquote>
I wrote the information down. pen and paper, I can scan that page for you right now?
[quote]It's no secret that the average israeli uses ten times as much water as the average palestinian.
That?s called farming. And Israel is well recognized for its pioneering farming methods. (10x less ?!?! Wow!). Yet, they managed to export 4,000,000 cases of fruit even back in 1937. I wonder what it?s now? 40,000,000 cases?<hr></blockquote>
No, It's not called farming, its called "western consumer lifestyle"
[quote]In regard to Mechiors statement, I disagree with him on many point
The question is not whether you agree with him or not, moron. The question is whether he would agree with you. And from the speech he gave, that answer is clearly no.<hr></blockquote>
From what I read, I can easily tell that he doesn't argee with you either
[quote]What facts?
Well, we?re back to square one. Aren?t we Irving?!<hr></blockquote>
I have yet to see you present one fact or historic source in this discussion.
[quote]I've just been to Mika's homepage, and you know what? He's got some really nice photographs on it. He really does. Go and have a look.
I'm not taking the piss. They're really good.<hr></blockquote>
I'm impressed too.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
And Shanny, why are you here? Need a hug?
Nah, just trying to liven things up around here. That's my job.<hr></blockquote>
Better get yourself a sense of humor first then...
It actualle seemed to be a quite interesting site...
[quote]But I still think you and New should not talk so much about banning Mika and instead try discussing the issues ...yes I know the guy is a demagogue and aggressive but he does have a good point or two when he can restrain himself from using his Irving rhetoric .<hr></blockquote>
I don't know if you've noticed but I have not continued to talk about getting him banned. It's not an issue for me.
[quote]LOL is that proof enough for you New ? or is it that famous IDF propaganda machine putting words into Arafat's mouth by remote Zionist nanobots?
It is totally acceptable for Israel to say they will not negotiate with a man who is a proven liar who has broken every agreement he's has ever signed and who uses aid money given to him by the EU and US ( sums exceeding 0.5 billion $ a year) on weapons and terrorist infrastructure instead of helping his beleaguered nation <hr></blockquote>
There is no prof that Arafat controls these organisations, I said. How much he knows about this I cannot know. But I've seen no good evidence. Again I want to stress that it is not really an important issue for me to defend Arafat. I have no love for this man. But he is Israels negotiation partner, like it or not.
One thing I read from the interview is that Arafat says straight out that he accepts a jewish state. While yesterdays Likud vote wasn't really that uplifting...
<strong>But when Israel and the US start talking about reforming the PA without even having Palestinian representatives present, it get rediculous. Getting the EU to discuss this matter directly with the palestinians would be a very good move.
...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well... It would be great if the EU had any interest in doing this .. it could have prevented sooo much of the death and destruction if they simply said months ago .. Either you reform your shity show and stop the violence or we stop giving you money.... anyone preventing the EU from discussing it with the PA ? why don't they do it ?
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
There is no prof that Arafat controls these organisations, I said. How much he knows about this I cannot know. But I've seen no good evidence. Again I want to stress that it is not really an important issue for me to defend Arafat. I have no love for this man. But he is Israels negotiation partner, like it or not....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really ? so funding them gives him zero control over them ?.... New, I can not take you seriously like this !
What about all the documents signed by him ordering money and weapons to these organisations are not evidence for you >?
[quote] Well... It would be great if the EU had any interest in doing this .. it could have prevented sooo much of the death and destruction if they simply said months ago .. Either you reform your shity show and stop the violence or we stop giving you money.... anyone preventing the EU from discussing it with the PA ? why don't they do it ? <hr></blockquote>
Well, if it was only that easy. If they could just flip that button, right? But it is an important discussion. How can reform be achieved within palestine, when the pressure of the conlfict is so intense. The same pressure has pushed Israel towards the right and Sharon, can we then expect the PA to "soften up"? How can this be acomplished? Anders is suggesting using aid as presure. To make the comparison with Israel again, it is clear to see that this kind of pressure helps. The US has an incredibly strong influence over israel.
But building up a pressure like this can also have negative influences. How can the palestinans find confidence in democracy in such a climate?
One thing is clear. The Aid and trade must benefit the palestinian people directly, and not just Arafats elite. The corruption in the PA has won Hamas much support.
But just as important is to show the palestinians that negotiation in a democratic fashion does work. They must see direct gains from the peacetalks, like the downscaling of the settlements, and the easing of trade restrictions. Israel has a lot of responsibility here.
If this can be achieved, I believe the fight agains terrorism will be one of the great winners. Right now the Hamas and Jihad are the only palestinian ideal next to a limping PA.
[quote] Really ? so funding them gives him zero control over them ?.... New, I can not take you seriously like this !
What about all the documents signed by him ordering money and weapons to these organisations are not evidence for you >?
Was OBL responsible for 911 ? by your logic not ! <hr></blockquote>
OBL has no similarity to Arafat. OBL was not an afghan, he was not the chosen leader of the afghan people. He never lead them against a foregin occupation force (not directly anyway, I don't think the Taliban was even formed during the Soviet occupation). OBL had no democratic basis for his organisation etc. etc.
I have yet to see those documents you speak of, and even if they should exist. Arafat really isn't that powerful either. He didn't even dare to enter Jenin today, because he felt threathend by the strong Jihad sympathy in the camp.
But this still doesn't change the point that Arafat is the only current palestinian leader to negotiat with..., he is elected, and does represent the palestinian people on the international scene.
If you can not accept this, then lets just agree to disagree, ok? I would probably get no way with you if I was saying that Sharon is the biggest obstacle to peace.
No, if I were Kofi Annan i would say that the palestinians get everything and israel gets nothing even though they were the victor, and Israel is always wrong because the Arabs own me.................
No, if I were Kofi Annan i would say that the palestinians get everything and israel gets nothing even though they were the victor, and Israel is always wrong because the Arabs own me.................
I have yet to see you present one fact or historic source in this discussion.
Ok. So there are your arguments:
1] Arafat is NOT a terrorist and is NOT responsible for the murderous terror campaign unleashed against Israelis.
2] It is NOT ok for the Israelis to live in Palestine because the land has been taken by force.
3] It IS ok for Palestinians to live in Israel because the land has been NOT been taken by force.
1] I have provided you with a couple of links to a document linking Arafat to the financing of terror groups under his authority. The document had Arafat?s signature on it. And not only that, he personally changed some of the funds the terrorist would have received. The document was a laundry list of the cost involved in the mechanics of suicide terror. And the things itemized there ranged from the cost of explosive belts, to the cost of bullets and assault riffles, to the cost of funerals and assistance to the suicide terrorists.
I have referred you to the intercepted PA ship, the Karine-A. A ship that carried 50! Tons of explosives and war material from Iran. Arafat?s closest man, his finance secretary, personally supervised this purchase of arms. This was a very expensive purchase and there is no way such a purchase could have been made without the personal knowledge of Arafat. Particularly since all PA funds are under Arafat personal accounts.
2] and 3] are really the same argument. So here I asked you how is Israel different from other countries that the Arabs invaded as they expanded their empire from Arabia. How is Israel different from Spain? or from Austria? or Hungary? or other European countries that the they have invaded?
The fact is, they HAVE taken our land by force. And so by your own argument and logic they have no legitimate claim to our land. It?s very clear who was on the land first. It was the Jews. And we derive our name from this land. We were there 1500 years before Mohamed was born. And we were always there. No matter how brutally different conquers have treated us, the Jewish presence was never extinguished. We never forsake our birthright to our land. We always kept our unique nationality even in the face of every kind of discrimination you care to think of. (From forced conversions, to pogroms, to industrialized mass murder). We kept our faith and we kept our identity. For almost 2,000 years, and no matter how far away we were pushed, and how difficult it was, we have never forsaken our tie to our land.
The fact is, they HAVE taken our land by force. And so by your own argument and logic they have no legitimate claim to our land. It?s very clear who was on the land first. It was the Jews. And we derive our name from this land. We were there 1500 years before Mohamed was born. And we were always there. No matter how brutally different conquers have treated us, the Jewish presence was never extinguished. We never forsake our birthright to our land. We always kept our unique nationality even in the face of every kind of discrimination you care to think of. (From forced conversions, to pogroms, to industrialized mass murder). We kept our faith and we kept our identity. For almost 2,000 years, and no matter how far away we were pushed, and how difficult it was, we have never forsaken tie to our land.
[quote]1] Arafat is NOT a terrorist and is NOT responsible for the murderous terror campaign unleashed against Israelis.
2] It is NOT ok for the Israelis to live in Palestine because the land has been taken by force.
3] It IS ok for Palestinians to live in Israel because the land has been NOT been taken by force.<hr></blockquote>
Wrong, these are not my arguments, these are arguments you have invented, silly you
[quote]1] I have provided you with a couple of links to a document linking Arafat to the financing of terror groups under his authority.<hr></blockquote>
As you see I have posted my veiws on this in my argument with rashumon above.
[quote][b]2] and 3] are really the same argument. So here I asked you how is Israel different from other countries that the Arabs invaded as they expanded their empire from Arabia. How is Israel different from Spain? or from Austria? or Hungary? or other European countries that the they have invaded? [quote][B]
Israel is a modern democracy, established by the UN, and we are not living in the dark ages anymore. That is the difference. I hope you know what happened to the jews in spain after the "recoquista" in 1492.
[quote]The fact is, they HAVE taken our land by force.<hr></blockquote>
The arabs never took the land from the jewish people by force. There was no nation of israel there during the arabian conquest of the middel east.
[quote]And so by your own argument and logic they have no legitimate claim to our land. It?s very clear who was on the land first. It was the Jews.<hr></blockquote> well there were people there before the jews came too. Was it the Hetits? (Does this make you an anti-hetit? hehe)
But this hardly the point. If we were to redraw the borders of the world to where they were 2500 years ago we would be in a hell of a lot of trouble. The fact is also that the arabians are of the same origins as the jews. They've been there all the time, so has some jews, but many of the jews in israel come from other parts of the world, were they have been living for centuries.
The unright done to jews in the past does not justify the wrongdoing of Israel agains the palestinians. Nomatter how "romantic" your relationship with your the ancient Israel is, it does not give you the right to expell the palestinans and take their land now. No people have a birthright to land. Borders are made by the events of history. Good or bad.
We now have international laws to regulate this, we have the Geneva convention and the UN. And israel has to respect its decissions. (And yes, the arabs do to. One might never agree if the creation of Israel was "joust", but its there and the arabs are starting to accept that. Time for you to start acceptin the rights of the palestinian people too...
[quote] 1273 BCE\tIsrael\tConquest of Canaan ** under Joshua <hr></blockquote>
This rater implies that someone was already there, right?
I've already argued that the land was only under jewish rule for something like 412 years all together, while arabian rule has lasted much longer. With your line of thinking this must be an argument you can relate to?
BTW, anyone care to answer my points on palestinian reform?
1] I have provided you with a couple of links to a document linking Arafat to the financing of terror groups under his authority. The document had Arafat?s signature on it. And not only that, he personally changed some of the funds the terrorist would have received. The document was a laundry list of the cost involved in the mechanics of suicide terror. And the things itemized there ranged from the cost of explosive belts, to the cost of bullets and assault riffles, to the cost of funerals and assistance to the suicide terrorists.
I have referred you to the intercepted PA ship, the Karine-A. A ship that carried 50! Tons of explosives and war material from Iran. Arafat?s closest man, his finance secretary, personally supervised this purchase of arms. This was a very expensive purchase and there is no way such a purchase could have been made without the personal knowledge of Arafat. Particularly since all PA funds are under Arafat personal accounts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
just to add to that i would also note that:
1. I have posted a link to a CNN interview in which Arafat openly admits that he has funded Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade , an organisation responsible for most terrorist attacks in past months.indeed he claimed to be proud of funding these murderers ! read it !
2. Munitions on the Karin A ship cost the PA 50 mill $ according to the captured captain of the ship and documents seized on it and durin operation defensive shield ( and thats not covering for the cost of the ship itself ...)
There is NO WAY that this kind of money was being spent without Arafat being aware of it ! documents have been found where he is arguing about hundreds of $$$ so 50 mill is not a drop in the water for the hungry Plestinians... most of this money probably came from EU and US aid money .... just think of it ... even Arafat's oun people and Arab states are seriously fed up with him .
Could you please point out to me where does it say that Israelites were the first *settlers* in that land east and west of the river? I will be grateful.
Also the link you have provided does not mention anything about that.
Right ! Silly me. Should have known better than to waste my time with you Irving. You are beyond reproach. But at least I exposed you for what you are.
BTW, anyone care to answer my points on palestinian reform?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree that it is a delicate process. If the means were seen as an intrusion into internal affairs it could hurt the goal. And it could also lead to more direct political influence to Hamas (If only Hamas was two organisations instead of one, a social and a militant organisation everything would be much easier). But having a "weak dictator" as the leader of PA makes things very unpredictable.
Comments
<strong>
I've not seen good evidence that he has control over Hamas, Jihad or Al-aqsa, no. But I agree that he has not done nearly enough to stop the attacks. I don't think he is a good leader, but he is the only leader there is to negotiate with. Like it or not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
LOL Come on New .... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/05/12/arafat.israel/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/meast/05/12/arafat.israel/index.html</a>;
Interview with the TWAT where he flatly admits to funding Al-Aqsa Brigades who were behind most attacks since last summer...
a funny quote from the interview:
The Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades has carried out numerous attacks against military targets and civilians in Israel and in Israeli settlements in the West Bank and Gaza. The U.S. State Department designated it as a foreign terrorist organization in March.
"I don't know," Arafat said. "But you know we have condemned this. And not only that, I gave instructions to search who had sent this."
He seemed astonished that the group would even be involved in militant violence. "Al Aqsa Brigade is engaged in terrorism? Give me one, one example."
His funding of Al Aqsa and other such groups should be compared to the U.S. government's welfare program, he said. Many of the group members lost jobs in Israel when hostilities heightened and live in poverty, he said.
"I am proud I am giving help for those who have lost their work in Israel," Arafat said. "If I am giving money, I am proud of it."
LOL is that proof enough for you New ? or is it that famous IDF propaganda machine putting words into Arafat's mouth by remote Zionist nanobots ?
It is totally acceptable for Israel to say they will not negotiate with a man who is a proven liar who has broken every agreement he's has ever signed and who uses aid money given to him by the EU and US ( sums exceeding 0.5 billion $ a year)
on weapons and terrorist infrastructure instead of helping his beleaguered nation
I don't think the Saudi purposal is as dead as it might seem. Allthough Likud definatly made things harder yesterday, I think this plan is hard to disregard. Simple, straightforward and coprehendsible. Even the americans
Modernizing the strucure of the PA is definatly an important issue. What we have seen since Oslo is a terrible example of corruption and incompetence. Democracy doesn't come overnight, but Arafat has utterly failed to delivering the fruits of peace to his people (except a chosen few that is).
People like Hanan Ashrawi left the PA government because of this.
Arafat only recently regain some of his former popularity with the palestinian people by finally standing up to Israel at Camp David and Taba, and more recently by not giving in during the siege of his Ramallah compund.
But when Israel and the US start talking about reforming the PA without even having Palestinian representatives present, it get rediculous. Getting the EU to discuss this matter directly with the palestinians would be a very good move.
To killa:
[quote]If you read my post, you'd see that I don't have the article at hand, but I'll get it.
Yet, you are able to quote precisely all these facts and figures. I?m sure the Arab propaganda manuals came very handy on this occasion.<hr></blockquote>
I wrote the information down.
[quote]It's no secret that the average israeli uses ten times as much water as the average palestinian.
That?s called farming. And Israel is well recognized for its pioneering farming methods. (10x less ?!?! Wow!). Yet, they managed to export 4,000,000 cases of fruit even back in 1937. I wonder what it?s now? 40,000,000 cases?<hr></blockquote>
No, It's not called farming, its called "western consumer lifestyle"
[quote]In regard to Mechiors statement, I disagree with him on many point
The question is not whether you agree with him or not, moron. The question is whether he would agree with you. And from the speech he gave, that answer is clearly no.<hr></blockquote>
From what I read, I can easily tell that he doesn't argee with you either
[quote]What facts?
Well, we?re back to square one. Aren?t we Irving?!<hr></blockquote>
I have yet to see you present one fact or historic source in this discussion.
[quote]I've just been to Mika's homepage, and you know what? He's got some really nice photographs on it. He really does. Go and have a look.
I'm not taking the piss. They're really good.<hr></blockquote>
I'm impressed too.
[quote]Originally posted by New:
And Shanny, why are you here? Need a hug?
Nah, just trying to liven things up around here. That's my job.<hr></blockquote>
Better get yourself a sense of humor first then...
Did you read the other pages of your own link mika? <a href="http://www.islamfortoday.com/"; target="_blank">http://www.islamfortoday.com/</a>;
It actualle seemed to be a quite interesting site...
[quote]But I still think you and New should not talk so much about banning Mika and instead try discussing the issues ...yes I know the guy is a demagogue and aggressive but he does have a good point or two when he can restrain himself from using his Irving rhetoric .<hr></blockquote>
I don't know if you've noticed but I have not continued to talk about getting him banned.
[quote]LOL is that proof enough for you New ? or is it that famous IDF propaganda machine putting words into Arafat's mouth by remote Zionist nanobots?
It is totally acceptable for Israel to say they will not negotiate with a man who is a proven liar who has broken every agreement he's has ever signed and who uses aid money given to him by the EU and US ( sums exceeding 0.5 billion $ a year) on weapons and terrorist infrastructure instead of helping his beleaguered nation <hr></blockquote>
There is no prof that Arafat controls these organisations, I said. How much he knows about this I cannot know. But I've seen no good evidence. Again I want to stress that it is not really an important issue for me to defend Arafat. I have no love for this man. But he is Israels negotiation partner, like it or not.
One thing I read from the interview is that Arafat says straight out that he accepts a jewish state. While yesterdays Likud vote wasn't really that uplifting...
<strong>But when Israel and the US start talking about reforming the PA without even having Palestinian representatives present, it get rediculous. Getting the EU to discuss this matter directly with the palestinians would be a very good move.
...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well... It would be great if the EU had any interest in doing this .. it could have prevented sooo much of the death and destruction if they simply said months ago .. Either you reform your shity show and stop the violence or we stop giving you money.... anyone preventing the EU from discussing it with the PA ? why don't they do it ?
[quote]Originally posted by New:
<strong>
There is no prof that Arafat controls these organisations, I said. How much he knows about this I cannot know. But I've seen no good evidence. Again I want to stress that it is not really an important issue for me to defend Arafat. I have no love for this man. But he is Israels negotiation partner, like it or not....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Really ? so funding them gives him zero control over them ?.... New, I can not take you seriously like this !
What about all the documents signed by him ordering money and weapons to these organisations are not evidence for you >?
Was OBL responsible for 911 ? by your logic not !
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Israel, obviouly has a big problem talking to this man ...
Well, if it was only that easy. If they could just flip that button, right? But it is an important discussion. How can reform be achieved within palestine, when the pressure of the conlfict is so intense. The same pressure has pushed Israel towards the right and Sharon, can we then expect the PA to "soften up"? How can this be acomplished? Anders is suggesting using aid as presure. To make the comparison with Israel again, it is clear to see that this kind of pressure helps. The US has an incredibly strong influence over israel.
But building up a pressure like this can also have negative influences. How can the palestinans find confidence in democracy in such a climate?
One thing is clear. The Aid and trade must benefit the palestinian people directly, and not just Arafats elite. The corruption in the PA has won Hamas much support.
But just as important is to show the palestinians that negotiation in a democratic fashion does work. They must see direct gains from the peacetalks, like the downscaling of the settlements, and the easing of trade restrictions. Israel has a lot of responsibility here.
If this can be achieved, I believe the fight agains terrorism will be one of the great winners. Right now the Hamas and Jihad are the only palestinian ideal next to a limping PA.
[quote] Really ? so funding them gives him zero control over them ?.... New, I can not take you seriously like this !
What about all the documents signed by him ordering money and weapons to these organisations are not evidence for you >?
Was OBL responsible for 911 ? by your logic not ! <hr></blockquote>
OBL has no similarity to Arafat. OBL was not an afghan, he was not the chosen leader of the afghan people. He never lead them against a foregin occupation force (not directly anyway, I don't think the Taliban was even formed during the Soviet occupation). OBL had no democratic basis for his organisation etc. etc.
I have yet to see those documents you speak of, and even if they should exist. Arafat really isn't that powerful either. He didn't even dare to enter Jenin today, because he felt threathend by the strong Jihad sympathy in the camp.
But this still doesn't change the point that Arafat is the only current palestinian leader to negotiat with..., he is elected, and does represent the palestinian people on the international scene.
If you can not accept this, then lets just agree to disagree, ok? I would probably get no way with you if I was saying that Sharon is the biggest obstacle to peace.
<strong>LOL, Hassan .. good one
i'd love to try your mums Falafel ... yum !
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You're on. Next time I'm home I'll pack some.
<strong>You guys STILL arguing? I told you, rashumon is correct. There is no reason to argue any longer.............</strong><hr></blockquote>
Holy shit, it's Kofi Annan!
Disney's "<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/13/international/middleeast/13MIDE.html?pagewanted=print&position=bottom"; target="_blank">That Darned Likud!</a>"
No, if I were Kofi Annan i would say that the palestinians get everything and israel gets nothing even though they were the victor, and Israel is always wrong because the Arabs own me.................
No, if I were Kofi Annan i would say that the palestinians get everything and israel gets nothing even though they were the victor, and Israel is always wrong because the Arabs own me.................
I have yet to see you present one fact or historic source in this discussion.
Ok. So there are your arguments:
1] Arafat is NOT a terrorist and is NOT responsible for the murderous terror campaign unleashed against Israelis.
2] It is NOT ok for the Israelis to live in Palestine because the land has been taken by force.
3] It IS ok for Palestinians to live in Israel because the land has been NOT been taken by force.
1] I have provided you with a couple of links to a document linking Arafat to the financing of terror groups under his authority. The document had Arafat?s signature on it. And not only that, he personally changed some of the funds the terrorist would have received. The document was a laundry list of the cost involved in the mechanics of suicide terror. And the things itemized there ranged from the cost of explosive belts, to the cost of bullets and assault riffles, to the cost of funerals and assistance to the suicide terrorists.
I have referred you to the intercepted PA ship, the Karine-A. A ship that carried 50! Tons of explosives and war material from Iran. Arafat?s closest man, his finance secretary, personally supervised this purchase of arms. This was a very expensive purchase and there is no way such a purchase could have been made without the personal knowledge of Arafat. Particularly since all PA funds are under Arafat personal accounts.
2] and 3] are really the same argument. So here I asked you how is Israel different from other countries that the Arabs invaded as they expanded their empire from Arabia. How is Israel different from Spain? or from Austria? or Hungary? or other European countries that the they have invaded?
The fact is, they HAVE taken our land by force. And so by your own argument and logic they have no legitimate claim to our land. It?s very clear who was on the land first. It was the Jews. And we derive our name from this land. We were there 1500 years before Mohamed was born. And we were always there. No matter how brutally different conquers have treated us, the Jewish presence was never extinguished. We never forsake our birthright to our land. We always kept our unique nationality even in the face of every kind of discrimination you care to think of. (From forced conversions, to pogroms, to industrialized mass murder). We kept our faith and we kept our identity. For almost 2,000 years, and no matter how far away we were pushed, and how difficult it was, we have never forsaken our tie to our land.
What facts am I missing here NEW?
mika.
[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
<strong>quote
The fact is, they HAVE taken our land by force. And so by your own argument and logic they have no legitimate claim to our land. It?s very clear who was on the land first. It was the Jews. And we derive our name from this land. We were there 1500 years before Mohamed was born. And we were always there. No matter how brutally different conquers have treated us, the Jewish presence was never extinguished. We never forsake our birthright to our land. We always kept our unique nationality even in the face of every kind of discrimination you care to think of. (From forced conversions, to pogroms, to industrialized mass murder). We kept our faith and we kept our identity. For almost 2,000 years, and no matter how far away we were pushed, and how difficult it was, we have never forsaken tie to our land.
What facts am I missing here NEW?
mika.
[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
So you are saying that Jewish people are the first settlers of the land west ot the Dead Sea? Could you please elaborate more on that?
1273 BCE\tIsrael\tConquest of Canaan ** under Joshua,
423 BCE\tIranian\tBabylon invades and destroys First Temple [Persian empire was based in modern day Iran]
371 BCE\tIsrael
Iranian\tKing Cyrus issued decree to restore Jewish Nation
312 BCE\tIsrael
Greek\tBattle of Gaza; Seleucus controls Syria and Babylonia [Seleucid empire was based in Macedonia, northern Greece]
285-246 BCE\tIsrael
Egyptian\tRule of Ptolemy II
199 BCE\tIsrael
Greek\tSeleucid monarchy occupies Judea **
175 BCE\tIsrael
Greek-Syrian\tAntiochus Epiphanes came to throne in Syria
168 BCE\tIsrael
Greek-Syrian\tPagan idol set up in Temple
165 BCE\tIsrael
Greek-Syrian\tMacabean Revolt, beginning of Hasmonean dynasty
142 BCE\tIsrael\tShimon rules and gains Judean indepence
135-104 BCE\tIsrael\tRule of Yochanan Hyrkanus
104-103 BCE\tIsrael\tRule of Yehudah Aristobulus
103-76 BCE\tIsrael\tRule of Alexander YannaiÂ*
76-66 BCE\tIsrael\tRule of Salome Alexandra
63 BCE\tIsraelÂ*
Roman\tCivil War: Hyrkanus vs. Aristobulus. Pompey intervenes, Conquest of Jerusalem by Pompey, Judea becomes Roman Vassal.
47 BCE\tIsraelÂ*
Roman\tCaesar appoints Antipater ruler of JudeaÂ*
70Â*\tRoman\tThe Romans conquer Jerusalem
132-136\tRoman\tJewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty, rename area to "Palestine" **
351\tRoman\tJewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395\tTurkish\tPalestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438\tTurkish\tEmpress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614\tIran\tPersian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628\tTurkish\t"Palestine" reconquered by the Byzantines
633-637\tSyrian\tArab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639\tSyrian\tMuawiyah Arab governor.
660\tSyrian\tMuawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
661\tSyrian\tMurder of Ali; Omayyad Dynasty begins.
750\tIraq\tLast Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persian, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878\tEgyptian\tAhmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor of Egypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904\tIraq\tThe Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906\tCarmathians\tInroads of the Carmathians.
934\tEgyptian\tThe Egyptian lkhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969\tEgyptian\tThe Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971\tCarmathians\tWar with the Carmathians.
970-976\tTurkish\tByzantine invasion.
1070-1080\tTurkish\tSeljuq Turks conquer Palestine.
1099\tCrusaders\tThe Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187\tCrusaders\tSaladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244\tMongolian\tThe Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem's population is slaughtered, the city sacked.
1260\tEgyptian\tMameluk Sultans of Egypt defeat Mongols at Ain Jalut, in Palestine; their reign begins.
1260\tEgyptian\tMongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291\tEgyptian\tEnd of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303\tMongolian\tMongol invasion.
1516-1517\tTurkish\tThe Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799\tFrench\tÂ*Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831\tEgyptian\tIbrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt's Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840\tTurkish\tIbrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840\tTurkish\tEnglish writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882\tTurkish\tFirst Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909\tTurkish\tFoundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918\tBritish\tAllies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918\tBritish\tBalfour Declaration granting "Jewish Homeland" internationally approved.
1920\tBritish\tBritish (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration
* The closest modern country which contained the seat of power at the time.
** Canaan, Judea and "Palestine" refers to both the East and West banks of the Jordan river, what is Israel and Jordan today
Source: Joan Peter's "From Time Immemorial" Harper & Row Publishers
You can find more here:
<a href="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/arabs.html"; target="_blank">http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/arabs.html</a>;
mika.
[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
2] It is NOT ok for the Israelis to live in Palestine because the land has been taken by force.
3] It IS ok for Palestinians to live in Israel because the land has been NOT been taken by force.<hr></blockquote>
Wrong, these are not my arguments, these are arguments you have invented, silly you
[quote]1] I have provided you with a couple of links to a document linking Arafat to the financing of terror groups under his authority.<hr></blockquote>
As you see I have posted my veiws on this in my argument with rashumon above.
[quote][b]2] and 3] are really the same argument. So here I asked you how is Israel different from other countries that the Arabs invaded as they expanded their empire from Arabia. How is Israel different from Spain? or from Austria? or Hungary? or other European countries that the they have invaded? [quote][B]
Israel is a modern democracy, established by the UN, and we are not living in the dark ages anymore. That is the difference. I hope you know what happened to the jews in spain after the "recoquista" in 1492.
[quote]The fact is, they HAVE taken our land by force.<hr></blockquote>
The arabs never took the land from the jewish people by force. There was no nation of israel there during the arabian conquest of the middel east.
[quote]And so by your own argument and logic they have no legitimate claim to our land. It?s very clear who was on the land first. It was the Jews.<hr></blockquote> well there were people there before the jews came too. Was it the Hetits? (Does this make you an anti-hetit?
But this hardly the point. If we were to redraw the borders of the world to where they were 2500 years ago we would be in a hell of a lot of trouble. The fact is also that the arabians are of the same origins as the jews. They've been there all the time, so has some jews, but many of the jews in israel come from other parts of the world, were they have been living for centuries.
The unright done to jews in the past does not justify the wrongdoing of Israel agains the palestinians. Nomatter how "romantic" your relationship with your the ancient Israel is, it does not give you the right to expell the palestinans and take their land now. No people have a birthright to land. Borders are made by the events of history. Good or bad.
We now have international laws to regulate this, we have the Geneva convention and the UN. And israel has to respect its decissions. (And yes, the arabs do to. One might never agree if the creation of Israel was "joust", but its there and the arabs are starting to accept that. Time for you to start acceptin the rights of the palestinian people too...
This rater implies that someone was already there, right?
I've already argued that the land was only under jewish rule for something like 412 years all together, while arabian rule has lasted much longer. With your line of thinking this must be an argument you can relate to?
BTW, anyone care to answer my points on palestinian reform?
<strong>quote
1] I have provided you with a couple of links to a document linking Arafat to the financing of terror groups under his authority. The document had Arafat?s signature on it. And not only that, he personally changed some of the funds the terrorist would have received. The document was a laundry list of the cost involved in the mechanics of suicide terror. And the things itemized there ranged from the cost of explosive belts, to the cost of bullets and assault riffles, to the cost of funerals and assistance to the suicide terrorists.
I have referred you to the intercepted PA ship, the Karine-A. A ship that carried 50! Tons of explosives and war material from Iran. Arafat?s closest man, his finance secretary, personally supervised this purchase of arms. This was a very expensive purchase and there is no way such a purchase could have been made without the personal knowledge of Arafat. Particularly since all PA funds are under Arafat personal accounts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
just to add to that i would also note that:
1. I have posted a link to a CNN interview in which Arafat openly admits that he has funded Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade , an organisation responsible for most terrorist attacks in past months.indeed he claimed to be proud of funding these murderers ! read it !
2. Munitions on the Karin A ship cost the PA 50 mill $ according to the captured captain of the ship and documents seized on it and durin operation defensive shield ( and thats not covering for the cost of the ship itself ...)
There is NO WAY that this kind of money was being spent without Arafat being aware of it ! documents have been found where he is arguing about hundreds of $$$ so 50 mill is not a drop in the water for the hungry Plestinians... most of this money probably came from EU and US aid money .... just think of it ... even Arafat's oun people and Arab states are seriously fed up with him .
<strong>A.D.\tRuler *
1273 BCE\tIsrael\tConquest of Canaan ** under Joshua,
423 BCE\tIranian\tBabylon invades and destroys First Temple [Persian empire was based in modern day Iran]
371 BCE\tIsrael
Iranian\tKing Cyrus issued decree to restore Jewish Nation
312 BCE\tIsrael
Greek\tBattle of Gaza; Seleucus controls Syria and Babylonia [Seleucid empire was based in Macedonia, northern Greece]
285-246 BCE\tIsrael
Egyptian\tRule of Ptolemy II
199 BCE\tIsrael
Greek\tSeleucid monarchy occupies Judea **
175 BCE\tIsrael
Greek-Syrian\tAntiochus Epiphanes came to throne in Syria
168 BCE\tIsrael
Greek-Syrian\tPagan idol set up in Temple
165 BCE\tIsrael
Greek-Syrian\tMacabean Revolt, beginning of Hasmonean dynasty
142 BCE\tIsrael\tShimon rules and gains Judean indepence
135-104 BCE\tIsrael\tRule of Yochanan Hyrkanus
104-103 BCE\tIsrael\tRule of Yehudah Aristobulus
103-76 BCE\tIsrael\tRule of Alexander YannaiÂ*
76-66 BCE\tIsrael\tRule of Salome Alexandra
63 BCE\tIsraelÂ*
Roman\tCivil War: Hyrkanus vs. Aristobulus. Pompey intervenes, Conquest of Jerusalem by Pompey, Judea becomes Roman Vassal.
47 BCE\tIsraelÂ*
Roman\tCaesar appoints Antipater ruler of JudeaÂ*
70Â*\tRoman\tThe Romans conquer Jerusalem
132-136\tRoman\tJewish revolt under Bar Kochba; final defeat of Judah and loss of political sovereignty, rename area to "Palestine" **
351\tRoman\tJewish revolt to end foreign rule; Roman Empire adopts Christianity.
395\tTurkish\tPalestine part of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire, still called Judea or Judah.
438\tTurkish\tEmpress Eudocia allows Jews back to Temple site, misinterpreted by Jews as return to nationhood.
614\tIran\tPersian conquest under Chosroes (with the support of a Jewish army).
628\tTurkish\t"Palestine" reconquered by the Byzantines
633-637\tSyrian\tArab conquest; shortly afterward, attempt by Jews to restore their nation.
639\tSyrian\tMuawiyah Arab governor.
660\tSyrian\tMuawiyah is made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
661\tSyrian\tMurder of Ali; Omayyad Dynasty begins.
750\tIraq\tLast Omayyad Caliph defeated; reign of the Abbassid Caliphs of Baghdad (Persian, Turk, Circassian, Kurd).
878\tEgyptian\tAhmad, b. Tulun, a Turkish general and governor of Egypt, conquers Palestine; reign of the Tulunides (Turks).
904\tIraq\tThe Abbassids of Baghdad reconquer Palestine.
906\tCarmathians\tInroads of the Carmathians.
934\tEgyptian\tThe Egyptian lkhshidi princes conquer Palestine; their reign begins.
969\tEgyptian\tThe Fatimid Caliphs of Cairo conquer Palestine.
969-971\tCarmathians\tWar with the Carmathians.
970-976\tTurkish\tByzantine invasion.
1070-1080\tTurkish\tSeljuq Turks conquer Palestine.
1099\tCrusaders\tThe Crusaders conquer Jerusalem, massacre the Jewish and Muslim populations; reign in parts of Palestine until 1291.
1187\tCrusaders\tSaladin of Damascus, a Kurd, captures Jerusalem and the greater part of Palestine.
1244\tMongolian\tThe Kharezmians, instigated by Genghis Khan, invade Palestine; Jerusalem's population is slaughtered, the city sacked.
1260\tEgyptian\tMameluk Sultans of Egypt defeat Mongols at Ain Jalut, in Palestine; their reign begins.
1260\tEgyptian\tMongol invasion; Jerusalem sacked.
1291\tEgyptian\tEnd of the Latin (Crusaders) Kingdom.
1299-1303\tMongolian\tMongol invasion.
1516-1517\tTurkish\tThe Ottomans conquer Palestine.
1799\tFrench\tÂ*Napoleon conquers Palestine, but is defeated at Acre.
1831\tEgyptian\tIbrahim Pasha, adopted son of Egypt's Viceroy, occupies Palestine.
1840\tTurkish\tIbrahim Pasha compelled by the Powers to leave Palestine; Turkish rule restored.
1840\tTurkish\tEnglish writers and statesmen begin to discuss the possibility of a Jewish restoration.
1871-1882\tTurkish\tFirst Jewish agricultural settlements.
1909\tTurkish\tFoundation of the all-Jewish city of Tel Aviv.
1917-1918\tBritish\tAllies occupy the whole of Palestine, east and west of the Jordan River; British military administration, end of Ottoman reign.
1917-1918\tBritish\tBalfour Declaration granting "Jewish Homeland" internationally approved.
1920\tBritish\tBritish (pre-Mandate) civil administration; Turkish sovereignty renounced, treaty includes Balfour Declaration
* The closest modern country which contained the seat of power at the time.
** Canaan, Judea and "Palestine" refers to both the East and West banks of the Jordan river, what is Israel and Jordan today
Source: Joan Peter's "From Time Immemorial" Harper & Row Publishers
You can find more here:
<a href="http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/arabs.html"; target="_blank">http://www.yahoodi.com/peace/arabs.html</a>;
mika.
[ 05-15-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Could you please point out to me where does it say that Israelites were the first *settlers* in that land east and west of the river? I will be grateful.
Also the link you have provided does not mention anything about that.
Thanks.
Wrong, these are not my arguments, these are arguments you have invented, silly you
:eek:
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
Right ! Silly me. Should have known better than to waste my time with you Irving. You are beyond reproach. But at least I exposed you for what you are.
mika.
<strong>
BTW, anyone care to answer my points on palestinian reform?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree that it is a delicate process. If the means were seen as an intrusion into internal affairs it could hurt the goal. And it could also lead to more direct political influence to Hamas (If only Hamas was two organisations instead of one, a social and a militant organisation everything would be much easier). But having a "weak dictator" as the leader of PA makes things very unpredictable.
But it seems like Arafat has given the opportunity himself <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1988000/1988710.stm"; target="_blank">Arafat commits to Palestinian reform</a>.