Less than a week to go before May ends. Rolanbek, what is the significance of the 21st of June, given that is well after May ends?
Is it not the last day of spring? For a company with a summer ship estimate it shows you whether an estimate is simply a "quit bothering me until" date.
Edit:
I'm sure any other dates regarding other companies have nothing to do with this. As far as those are concerned I do not think we are even at the end of the beginning, to paraphrase Churchill.
I can't find any reference to a test group or any implication that this is anything other than an active product that is currently being shipped in its final state if I access the site without cookies enabled (i.e. as a potential new customer).
I've seen if you buy, you go to a page which say pre-order. If I go to "Availability" it says pre-order. If I go to the shipping status under that I see pre-order again plus this:
We've produced a large quantity of TextBlades, and have released a small sampling of several hundred units for customer shipments and quality verification.Before we release mass quantities, we're verifying performance in the field with an initial group of our customers.We'll be busy with that over the next few months as we get high volume inventory ready for release to all customers.
So, while I would phrase things differently, the information there seems to NOT say it is shipping to everyone. My main concern is the part on Availability that says some prior months are "Sold". That's because, while they are sold, they haven't been delivered. I'd probably just leave that part out and only show when the estimated time is for new orders.
They don't mention Treg specifically, but they do describe the group as you can see above. But none of this changes the statements that they are pre-orders.
Speculation is speculation. That others may engage in it does not make yours evaporate.
The point is that you somehow usually just make this an issue if I or certain others give their opinion, even though we present it as opinion. You don't seem to mind as much when critics "speculate" while stating their opinions as fact.
The point is that you somehow usually just make this an issue if I or certain others give their opinion, even though we present it as opinion.
Is that your opinion, or would you like to go back over the last 4 years and demonstrate that claim?
You don't seem to mind as much when critics "speculate" while stating their opinions as fact.
Ah, an appeal to motive, wrapped in an identity fallacy, wrapped in a tu quoque. Three ad hominem attacks in a single sentence. If I was planning on eating your brains, as a member of the new model zombie army of Hecate, it does not excuse you getting caught spooning someones temporal lobe into your mouth. Argument is redundant.
Let us review briefly:
So you think using terms like “prototype” isn’t misleading?
I think that is exactly the impression those who use the term "prototype" want to convey - a very rough device with no polish.
Or perhaps that they want to convey that the product is unfinished and that no matter if the item has been farted straight from the production line itself, as it is not the version that will be part of general release, who cares? The whole argument is pointless.
I'll tell you sometime that I am pretty certain of, the more WT publicly rail against people using a perfectly accurate term to describe their product the more that term seems to crop up.
One might say that a single year lead time to sort out the firmware kludge-fest that has expanded to fill all (or nearly all) available space like some gargoylesque ginger beer plant is optimistic. But what would be the point? WT will point andmake that screeching noise that Donald Sutherland does in Bodysnatchers, you will write far more text than required to put your point across which will be to delve into the minutia of the semantics, others will hoot and holler, and nothing will change. No information will be learnt. No progress made.
WT can't even respond to a request confirm or deny whether a promised update will be forthcoming in the next month. I think we can both agree that that question was simple, unambiguous and would set a clear expectation for everyone for that month. What is the problem with that?
The early prototypes that 131 Treg testers are using are the only Textblades that anyone is ever going to enjoy. Oh sure, Mark Knighton might add a few more treggers when he finishes hacking together his re-write of the 'v2' firmware in fall of 2021, but in the bigger picture, 10,000+ customers who paid Mark money 4+ years ago will never type on a Textblade. Facts.
> Is that your opinion, or would you like to go back over the last 4 years and demonstrate that claim?
I'll take one of yours recently in this very thread. After pointing out that Treg members have been accused of suffering from "Stockholm syndrome", you replied:
> Who knows? I think you would need a qualified person to make a diagnosis, and some clinical conditions i suspect. It's almost impossible to falsify as an argument so it's not tremendously productive, however many points of similarity between the behaviours there are.
That's quite a different kind of response to what you did when I simply gave my opinion. From a "Brrap" to "who knows". As demonstrated in you response to my opinion (stated as opinion):
> Brrap mindreading again. Sigh, this is a oldie but a goody. This fallacy, which is a corruption of stasis theory, where you speculate about another's emotions, thoughts, motivations and then claim to understand these clearly, occasionally more completely than the person in question knows themselves. The rhetor use this fallacious argument as a basis to construct further arguments for or against a given standpoint.
So, there you go.
> Or perhaps that they want to convey that the product is unfinished
By exaggerating. Which is my point. "Prototype" is a term applied to pretty early forms of a product - southing that is not remotely even considered as a possible shipping version. There is a lot that comes in between prototype and shipping versions, including release candidates which, at some point, actually become the shipping version.
Just as in software we have alpha and beta versions, but then move on to release candidates.
The early prototypes that 131 Treg testers are using are the only Textblades that anyone is ever going to enjoy. Oh sure, Mark Knighton might add a few more treggers when he finishes hacking together his re-write of the 'v2' firmware in fall of 2021, but in the bigger picture, 10,000+ customers who paid Mark money 4+ years ago will never type on a Textblade. Facts.
As Rolanbek would put it, Brrap. First, the 131 would only represent testers from the forums who have announced themselves. I don't know if they all have. I do know that some of those we know about now did not make such an announcement until well after they got their TextBlade. So it may well be that such never have at all. But that is probably minor. What is bigger is that from the start, when there were only about 20 of us from the forums, it was announced that the total was in the hundreds. Even if they didn't add any more from outside the forums, that would mean we'd still have 311 or even more now.
Once again, instead of just complaining about the vast majority of customers not having a TB yet, you throw in other stuff you simply make up.
it was announced that the total was in the hundreds
You repeat false statements from Waytools (Mark Knighton) and assert them as if they are facts. You are like a religious zealot, and Mark Knighton is your God. No matter how contradictory or unbelievable his BS is, you say it is a fact.
The rest of us observe the hundreds of demonstrably false Mark Knighton statements and quite reasonably conclude that nothing he says can be believed.
There were no (none, nada, zilch, zero) Treg testers prior to those who were selected and announced on the forum. You can actually determine this quite easily by looking at the various Mark Knighton statements on the blogs and forums.
You repeat false statements from Waytools (Mark Knighton) and assert them as if they are facts.
You are like a religious zealot, and Mark Knighton is your God. No matter how contradictory or unbelievable his BS is, you say it is a fact.
There were no (none, nada, zilch, zero) Treg testers prior to those who were selected and announced on the forum. You can actually determine this quite easily by looking at the various Mark Knighton statements on the blogs and forums.
Wow, that deserves a lot of Brrap's!
You are asserting that Mark didn't tell the truth about Treg testers outside of those from the forums and this "fact" has absolutely nothing to back it up. But it was a FACT that they announced there were hundreds in total back when only 20 were from the forums.
If Mark was my god, then I wouldn't have posted the many criticisms that are on the record in this thread alone. So in this example, you have not only asserted something as fact, but have done so in direct contradiction of what I have written.
And then you claim there were no Treg testers PRIOR to those selected from the forums. Huh? First, no one said anything about them being PRIOR to the original Treg group that were from the forums. There may have been some, but it was never addressed either way. So how are you determining anything about this???
I'll take one of yours recently in this very thread. After pointing out that Treg members have been accused of suffering from "Stockholm syndrome", you replied:
Who does know? Are you for example qualified to make that diagnosis or rule it out? As an argument it is not tremendously productive. I would like you to point out where in that statement I have been untrue, or unreasonable.
That's quite a different kind of response to what you did when I simply gave my opinion. From a "Brrap" to "who knows". As demonstrated in you response to my opinion (stated as opinion):
Sigh, which you follow with:
By exaggerating. Which is my point. "Prototype" is a term applied to pretty early forms of a product - southing that is not remotely even considered as a possible shipping version. There is a lot that comes in between prototype and shipping versions, including release candidates which, at some point, actually become the shipping version
basing an argument on an appeal to motive. You state an opinion, complain when it is pointed out that it would be fallacious to base an argument on the motive of the person using the term, then base an argument on the motive stated as opinion. If it wasn't so very funny it would be tragic.
As a side note you spend your time messing round with terms of art, but a prototype is a prototype. You can call it WT's current version "the pre-post release unicorn-fairy-production-mould-clap-your-hands if you believe in textblades" version, if you like, and it would still be an example of the yet to finished product a small sample of which have gone out to a contracted group of testers. I made this point already.
So there you go I suppose.
Just as in software we have alpha and beta versions, but then move on to release candidates.
Is that the development cycle at your software house then? I have sat in many rooms listening to people argue over the 'one true terminology' it's dull, unproductive, and normally quite bad tempered. As long as the criteria for you milestones are communicated correctly across your operation, the actual term is irrelevant. But then your years of experience in delivering products will have informed your position, won't it?
As Rolanbek would put it, Brrap
That's not how you use that. Mainly because TBD is engaging in something called hyperbole, which is something you have had a little trouble with recognising in the past. so here are a few pointers dear; If someone states "facts" after a claim regarding a future event they are either unaware of the flow of time (unlikely in this case) or invoking dramatic effect. Brrap is for mind reading only.
Wow, that deserves a lot of Brrap's!
Still no.
But it was a FACT that they announced there were hundreds in total back when only 20 were from the forums.
That is not the same as:
There were hundreds in total back when only 20 were from the forums.
I cannot tell you whether there were or were not those numbers at those times, and you I suspect won't know either. TBD's issue I believe is whether the statement is true, not whether a statement was made.
> Who does know? Are you for example qualified to make that diagnosis or rule it out?
And there you go. Someone makes up a rather notable personal criticism and you let it go because, "who does know" - but I give my opinion and you don't allow that same excuse. Basically you are proving my point. And then we have this:
> That's not how you use that. Mainly because TBD is engaging in something called hyperbole
So making stuff up, when criticizing WT, that is just "hyperbole". You just have a double standard. Shown yet again with this:
> I cannot tell you whether there were or were not those numbers at those times, and you I suspect won't know either. TBD's issue I believe is whether the statement is true, not whether a statement was made.
You see, I accurately reported what was stated at the time. No one outside of WT actually "knows", but that didn't stop TBD from saying it didn't happen. Which would require he be able to read minds. So work on your ever changing standards and get back to me.
Cool. So I guess you have time enough to find those examples you spoke of?
I know you need a fresh bone of contention to chew, but you can wait, DBK, you know, like a non-Tregger regular customer.
You can rest assured I won’t take 4+ years to respond.
Ah, but you will note that while I cut WT some slack about GR, I keep hitting them on failure to provide updates. The examples you said you have would fall into a similar category.
Cool. So I guess you have time enough to find those examples you spoke of?
I know you need a fresh bone of contention to chew, but you can wait, DBK, you know, like a non-Tregger regular customer.
You can rest assured I won’t take 4+ years to respond.
Ah, but you will note that while I cut WT some slack about GR, I keep hitting them on failure to provide updates. The examples you said you have would fall into a similar category.
C’mon DBK, we all know you’re not the enemy, I’m just having fun with the rewrites. You’ll see the examples when I get to them and there are sure to be similarities in complaints against WT.
And there you go. Someone makes up a rather notable personal criticism and you let it go because, "who does know" - but I give my opinion and you don't allow that same excuse.
I take then that that is an admission that you do not hold that qualification? Your opinion is as valid as the others then.
but I give my opinion and you don't allow that same excuse.
What, hold any opinion you like regarding whether you have Stockholm syndrome as without qualified medical assessment its all conjecture? If you like.
Basically you are proving my point
Only where DBK moon logic works. Which is inside your head only. I get that it annoys you when people say you suffer from Stockholm syndrome and are petrified of having the prototypes you hold taken away from you. I really do. I am trying to tell you that the more attention you draw to it the more it will happen. Treat it as an expression of the "Streisand effect"
So making stuff up, when criticizing WT, that is just "hyperbole".You just have a double standard. Shown yet again with this:
No hyperbole is hyperbole. I did say you would have trouble with this. Me predicting that isn't important really it just shows you are predictable and you weaknesses are known, Every single time to can't understand a thing you start complaining that the is the universe that is on the blink, not you. It is frankly exhausting cataloguing all the concepts you don't grasp and trying to explain them. My hope is that one day Pinocchio will be a real boy, but that does not appear to be today.
You see, I accurately reported what was stated at the time.
Did you? I did not bother to check as it doesn't actually matter. Strawmen are not worth arguing.
No one outside of WT actually "knows", but that didn't stop TBD from saying it didn't happen.
Well there is an assumption right there. Should the statement you said was made actually be true, people holding those non-forum allocated units would "know" and by your own reckoning that would be getting on for triple figures now. The statement is falsifiable, find some of these missing testers and get them to report in. I have seen no evidence of great swathes of non TREG prototypes being put out there. Moreover I don't care, if WT want to play that one close to their chest that is their prerogative, but you in your ignorance add nothing but ignorance to that topic.
Which would require he be able to read minds.
Nope, that is not required. TBD could have had a conversation with WT confirming his suspicions. As unlikely as that might seem. WT_support could confirm whether they had a chat with him and admitted the absence of non-TREG testers, or in fact confirm their existence and distribution. The bigger issue, as I have stated before, is you have limboed under the point that TBD's comment could not be literal, and that time travel is required. It's depressing that in all these years of trying to educate you you still can't really grasp this stuff.
So work on your ever changing standards and get back to me.
I detect a DBK sulk coming on, this is often one of the first signs. Don't be that guy, again.
> I get that it annoys you when people say you suffer from Stockholm syndrome and are petrified of having the prototypes you hold taken away from you.
So it's okay for you to mind read now? And not remotely accurately at that! But thanks for confirming you double standard about mind reading.
> Nope, that is not required. TBD could have had a conversation with WT confirming his suspicions. As unlikely as that might seem.
You'll excuse TBD for mind reading because "maybe" he had an "unlikely" conversation that there is no claim, let alone evidence, for? Wow.
> WT_support could confirm whether they had a chat with him and admitted the absence of non-Treg et,testers, or in fact confirm their existence
Let's see, they stated long ago about having hundreds of Treg testers - most NOT from the forums. So when TBD just assumes it isn't true, without any evidence at all, you not only excuse it, but make it up to WT to "confirm" a conversation that you made up as a possibility! Since it has already been established that TBD just accuses them of lying about everything, obviously it wouldn't matter if they said anything about it now.
Comments
Whether Mark will answer post 1151 is then just as likely as Mark answering post 993.
Less than a week to go before the end of May, less than a month to go before the 21st of June, 2019.
Does the Endgame approach, or are we in for yet another four years worth of re-heated sequels?
Sigh.
Tregblades for the few,
Textblades for no-one.
The Treg of war is foggy...
And my poem now is done!
Edit:
I'm sure any other dates regarding other companies have nothing to do with this. As far as those are concerned I do not think we are even at the end of the beginning, to paraphrase Churchill.
R
So, while I would phrase things differently, the information there seems to NOT say it is shipping to everyone. My main concern is the part on Availability that says some prior months are "Sold". That's because, while they are sold, they haven't been delivered. I'd probably just leave that part out and only show when the estimated time is for new orders.
They don't mention Treg specifically, but they do describe the group as you can see above. But none of this changes the statements that they are pre-orders.
The point is that you somehow usually just make this an issue if I or certain others give their opinion, even though we present it as opinion. You don't seem to mind as much when critics "speculate" while stating their opinions as fact.
Is that your opinion, or would you like to go back over the last 4 years and demonstrate that claim?
Ah, an appeal to motive, wrapped in an identity fallacy, wrapped in a tu quoque. Three ad hominem attacks in a single sentence. If I was planning on eating your brains, as a member of the new model zombie army of Hecate, it does not excuse you getting caught spooning someones temporal lobe into your mouth. Argument is redundant.
Let us review briefly:
Or perhaps that they want to convey that the product is unfinished and that no matter if the item has been farted straight from the production line itself, as it is not the version that will be part of general release, who cares? The whole argument is pointless.
I'll tell you sometime that I am pretty certain of, the more WT publicly rail against people using a perfectly accurate term to describe their product the more that term seems to crop up.
One might say that a single year lead time to sort out the firmware kludge-fest that has expanded to fill all (or nearly all) available space like some gargoylesque ginger beer plant is optimistic. But what would be the point? WT will point andmake that screeching noise that Donald Sutherland does in Bodysnatchers, you will write far more text than required to put your point across which will be to delve into the minutia of the semantics, others will hoot and holler, and nothing will change. No information will be learnt. No progress made.
WT can't even respond to a request confirm or deny whether a promised update will be forthcoming in the next month. I think we can both agree that that question was simple, unambiguous and would set a clear expectation for everyone for that month. What is the problem with that?
Other than I asked nearly a week ago, of course.
R
> Is that your opinion, or would you like to go back over the last 4 years and demonstrate that claim?
I'll take one of yours recently in this very thread. After pointing out that Treg members have been accused of suffering from "Stockholm syndrome", you replied:
> Who knows? I think you would need a qualified person to make a diagnosis, and some clinical conditions i suspect. It's almost impossible to falsify as an argument so it's not tremendously productive, however many points of similarity between the behaviours there are.
That's quite a different kind of response to what you did when I simply gave my opinion. From a "Brrap" to "who knows". As demonstrated in you response to my opinion (stated as opinion):
> Brrap mindreading again. Sigh, this is a oldie but a goody. This fallacy, which is a corruption of stasis theory, where you speculate about another's emotions, thoughts, motivations and then claim to understand these clearly, occasionally more completely than the person in question knows themselves. The rhetor use this fallacious argument as a basis to construct further arguments for or against a given standpoint.
So, there you go.
> Or perhaps that they want to convey that the product is unfinished
By exaggerating. Which is my point. "Prototype" is a term applied to pretty early forms of a product - southing that is not remotely even considered as a possible shipping version. There is a lot that comes in between prototype and shipping versions, including release candidates which, at some point, actually become the shipping version.
Just as in software we have alpha and beta versions, but then move on to release candidates.
Once again, instead of just complaining about the vast majority of customers not having a TB yet, you throw in other stuff you simply make up.
The rest of us observe the hundreds of demonstrably false Mark Knighton statements and quite reasonably conclude that nothing he says can be believed.
There were no (none, nada, zilch, zero) Treg testers prior to those who were selected and announced on the forum. You can actually determine this quite easily by looking at the various Mark Knighton statements on the blogs and forums.
You are asserting that Mark didn't tell the truth about Treg testers outside of those from the forums and this "fact" has absolutely nothing to back it up. But it was a FACT that they announced there were hundreds in total back when only 20 were from the forums.
If Mark was my god, then I wouldn't have posted the many criticisms that are on the record in this thread alone. So in this example, you have not only asserted something as fact, but have done so in direct contradiction of what I have written.
And then you claim there were no Treg testers PRIOR to those selected from the forums. Huh? First, no one said anything about them being PRIOR to the original Treg group that were from the forums. There may have been some, but it was never addressed either way. So how are you determining anything about this???
Sigh, which you follow with:
basing an argument on an appeal to motive. You state an opinion, complain when it is pointed out that it would be fallacious to base an argument on the motive of the person using the term, then base an argument on the motive stated as opinion. If it wasn't so very funny it would be tragic.
As a side note you spend your time messing round with terms of art, but a prototype is a prototype. You can call it WT's current version "the pre-post release unicorn-fairy-production-mould-clap-your-hands if you believe in textblades" version, if you like, and it would still be an example of the yet to finished product a small sample of which have gone out to a contracted group of testers. I made this point already.
So there you go I suppose.
Is that the development cycle at your software house then? I have sat in many rooms listening to people argue over the 'one true terminology' it's dull, unproductive, and normally quite bad tempered. As long as the criteria for you milestones are communicated correctly across your operation, the actual term is irrelevant. But then your years of experience in delivering products will have informed your position, won't it?
That's not how you use that. Mainly because TBD is engaging in something called hyperbole, which is something you have had a little trouble with recognising in the past. so here are a few pointers dear; If someone states "facts" after a claim regarding a future event they are either unaware of the flow of time (unlikely in this case) or invoking dramatic effect. Brrap is for mind reading only.
Still no.
That is not the same as:
There were hundreds in total back when only 20 were from the forums.
I cannot tell you whether there were or were not those numbers at those times, and you I suspect won't know either. TBD's issue I believe is whether the statement is true, not whether a statement was made.
R
And there you go. Someone makes up a rather notable personal criticism and you let it go because, "who does know" - but I give my opinion and you don't allow that same excuse. Basically you are proving my point. And then we have this:
> That's not how you use that. Mainly because TBD is engaging in something called hyperbole
So making stuff up, when criticizing WT, that is just "hyperbole". You just have a double standard. Shown yet again with this:
> I cannot tell you whether there were or were not those numbers at those times, and you I suspect won't know either. TBD's issue I believe is whether the statement is true, not whether a statement was made.
You see, I accurately reported what was stated at the time. No one outside of WT actually "knows", but that didn't stop TBD from saying it didn't happen. Which would require he be able to read minds. So work on your ever changing standards and get back to me.
You can rest assured I won’t take 4+ years to respond.
What, hold any opinion you like regarding whether you have Stockholm syndrome as without qualified medical assessment its all conjecture? If you like.
Only where DBK moon logic works. Which is inside your head only. I get that it annoys you when people say you suffer from Stockholm syndrome and are petrified of having the prototypes you hold taken away from you. I really do. I am trying to tell you that the more attention you draw to it the more it will happen. Treat it as an expression of the "Streisand effect"
No hyperbole is hyperbole. I did say you would have trouble with this. Me predicting that isn't important really it just shows you are predictable and you weaknesses are known, Every single time to can't understand a thing you start complaining that the is the universe that is on the blink, not you. It is frankly exhausting cataloguing all the concepts you don't grasp and trying to explain them. My hope is that one day Pinocchio will be a real boy, but that does not appear to be today.
Did you? I did not bother to check as it doesn't actually matter. Strawmen are not worth arguing.
Well there is an assumption right there. Should the statement you said was made actually be true, people holding those non-forum allocated units would "know" and by your own reckoning that would be getting on for triple figures now. The statement is falsifiable, find some of these missing testers and get them to report in. I have seen no evidence of great swathes of non TREG prototypes being put out there. Moreover I don't care, if WT want to play that one close to their chest that is their prerogative, but you in your ignorance add nothing but ignorance to that topic.
Nope, that is not required. TBD could have had a conversation with WT confirming his suspicions. As unlikely as that might seem. WT_support could confirm whether they had a chat with him and admitted the absence of non-TREG testers, or in fact confirm their existence and distribution. The bigger issue, as I have stated before, is you have limboed under the point that TBD's comment could not be literal, and that time travel is required. It's depressing that in all these years of trying to educate you you still can't really grasp this stuff.
I detect a DBK sulk coming on, this is often one of the first signs. Don't be that guy, again.
R
So it's okay for you to mind read now? And not remotely accurately at that! But thanks for confirming you double standard about mind reading.
> Nope, that is not required. TBD could have had a conversation with WT confirming his suspicions. As unlikely as that might seem.
You'll excuse TBD for mind reading because "maybe" he had an "unlikely" conversation that there is no claim, let alone evidence, for? Wow.
> WT_support could confirm whether they had a chat with him and admitted the absence of non-Treg et,testers, or in fact confirm their existence
Let's see, they stated long ago about having hundreds of Treg testers - most NOT from the forums. So when TBD just assumes it isn't true, without any evidence at all, you not only excuse it, but make it up to WT to "confirm" a conversation that you made up as a possibility! Since it has already been established that TBD just accuses them of lying about everything, obviously it wouldn't matter if they said anything about it now.