I dunno. I'm a little against Neo becoming a real superhero. In the Matrix, it's NOT his physical being doing things. He's manipulating the computer programs to do what he wants. He's not really changing physics. I don't want him to be able to do that. But that's just me.
I don't know if the original idea put forward had to do with him taking on the physical abilities that he had within the Matrix. Instead, I think he meant that because Neo had development such an intimate relationship mentally with the programs within the Matrix that perhaps he had developed to the point that he could have similar influence over machines in the real world. I had a similar thought. Though I think it could go a step further and suggest that all of the people who have heightened awareness in the Matrix, ie. all of the people of Zion, could have similar abilities, though in a more limited manner than Neo, just as their abilities with in the Matrix, though impressive and beyond other humans, don't match Neo. Perhaps the reason that these few humans are unable to accept the world of the Matrix is that their minds have evolved to the point where they are more aware of the Matrix, in part due to their lifelong exposure to life with in a machine environment.
If this were the case for Neo, I wouldn't classify his abilities in the real world as his developing super powers akin to what he has in the Matrix, instead I would like to think that his abilities in the real world were a result of his inimate relationship with the machine world though his heightened awareness of machines because of his unique relationship with the Matrix. I would hope they wouldn't have him develop super human physical powers, but limit his abilities to a strong mental connection to machines and the ability to exert some limited imfluence over them.
Here's what I think, feel free to disagree, though you would be wrong. The special effeects were great, the correography excellent. Anyone who loves ballet and opera, should have loved "Reloaded" too. Unfortunately, like ballet and opera, "Reloaded" was rather pointless, camera dancing, pleasurable in doses, but no substitute for a delicate balance of plot. You endure 3-4 hours of ballet/opera to prove yourself cultured (not because it's really deep or important, it isn't), because of pop cultural hierarchies, the snobs cannot make the same appeals for "Reloaded", yet they ought to, because it's the same thing. If it's not obvious by now, a comparison to opera is not occasion for praise; neither is it occasion critique, just a comment on high frivolity in art, and high proficiency at delivering it.
When the last part, "Revolutions" comes out, it won't easily recapture the intrigue of the orginal, not after the gluttinous epic granduer of "Revolutions." What to do? I suggest an edit, not to add material, but rather to combine it. There just might be enough material in Reloaded and Revolutions to make a passable "Matrix 2" and leave it at that, more plot, less ballet.
It's clear to me that there was only ever one sequel in the combined efforts of the Walchowski bros, and the effort to make two more was a combination of greed, FXitis, and a little Kiwi envy.
More numbers fun: 101 (Neo's number) * 3 (Trinity's number) = 303, the room Trinity started the film in and the same room Neo ended it in.
I especially liked the idea of "planting" the love in Neo and Trinity. I watched the first one tonight and I thought she was leading Neo that way, at least.
As for the Matrix within a Matrix idea: the more I think about it, the less I like it. Not just because it's been done because we know that shit like that happens all the time, but because during the commentary on the DVD to the Matrix, the W.'s say that they intentionally colored everything in the Matrix green (or removed all blue or something like that) and the real world had lots of blue. Notice in Reloaded the abundance of blue, esp. in that last scene. So either they changed their minds regarding the coloring (which I doubt given the care taken with the films) or it's the real world.
BTW, what was Neo selling in the first movie? And what book did he get the disk out of? I wonder if there's any significance there.
Yeah, I thought about trinity/neo's love being implanted as well. That would definitely be kind of interesting, seeing as he is obviously the lonely pale computer nerd, all of a sudden having super powers and a hot girlfriend, he loves her, but perhaps her feelings for him are superimposed.
Yeah, I noticed all that blue/green trixyness, I liked it, though the green saturation of the matrix made neo and many other characters look deathly ill.
I BELIEVE he was selling some sort of pirate software, I don't know why it would be worth that much money, or why he would be selling it to a bunch of neo-goths. But Perhaps, they are hackers like him, and the software that he provided will enable them to get access to something desirable for them(money, drugs, groceries)
I don't recall what the book was in the beginning, but I'd bet it is a copy of some philosphy book that the wachowski's really like.
I don't recall what the book was in the beginning, but I'd bet it is a copy of some philosphy book that the wachowski's really like.
Simulacra & Simulation by Baurillard. Google is your friend Here's brief snippet from a synopsis:
Quote:
In Simulacra and Simulation, French social theorist Jean Baudrillard argues that our "postmodern" culture is a world of signs that have made a fundamental break from referring to "reality."
_ Baudrillard's concept of simulation is the creation of the real through conceptual or "mythological" models which have no connection or origin in reality. The model becomes the determinant of our perception of reality-- the real. Homes, relationships, fashion, art, music, all become dictated by their ideal models presented through the media.
"You're my savior man. My own personal Jesus Christ." Foreshadowing. The more I see the Matrix the more I realize that it was extremely well done and thought out.
And yes they are, or were influenced by Baudrillard . . . one thing about baudrillard is that he believes we live in the "hyper-real" that has no reference to a reality but only to an infinite set of signs . . . no truth but the semblance, the simulacrum of truth
its as if nobody reads my posts . . .that's what I was responding to above . . . . they are in dialogue with contemporary philosophy and have probably outgrown or transformed their ideas beyond Baudrillard . . . why?!?!
because Badrillard's idea has a strong nastalgia for the 'Real' he says there is not reality only an endless depth of sings refering to signs but he laments the loss of some real that he can't even call 'Real' beccause that's just a sign.
now they seem to be further where we were always allready 'in the text' sort of speak . . . meaning that reality always was a play of signs and any origin was always already an interpretation and not a fact
so naturally there will be a matrix within a matrix . . . but it will be smarter than to just be a gimmick . . .
. . . they will talk more about technology as the artifact of human evololution, meaning, that our artifacts evolve as we do . .
. . or rather, that our evolution is the evolution of our extensions through our technological artifacts
and, talk about evolution as extensions of the human body, and therefor, as a reflection of ourselves
its as if nobody reads my posts . . .that's what I was responding to above . . . . they are in dialogue with contemporary philosophy and have probably outgrown or transformed their ideas beyond Baudrillard . . .
Don't take offense, pfflam, there's a lot of material to get through in this thread. And, actually, the Baudrillard reference I was making was sort of an offshot from my observations after watching the first movie again. I'm not well-read enough in philosophy to have come up with that without having a reason to seek it out.
My interpretation of the ending and Neo's sudden ability to stop the sentinels in 'real life' is as such:
Those damn things don't run mechanically. They're controlled by software.
Neo, in his choice with the Architect, came to some sort of realization: basically, yeah, i can really kick the shit out of these things.
He's just now got the equivalent of an 802.11 card in his brain, and he just used that, subconsciously, to tap into the sentinels' systems and stop them.
Oh wait a second...the disc that Neo gave those guys was probably just some file to clear some crime they had committed....or something....I don't know.
Ok, I don't have time to read all 3 pages of stuff, but on the first page lots of people were talking about 'eliminating the one'. Making scenarios that 'the one' isn't needed. The machines didn't 'create' the one. 'The One' is an anomoly in the equation that is the matrix. It is something that will systematically show up, so they have chosen to control the anomoly rather than let it run free. "Getting rid of the need for the one" is something that they can't do. The One will show up in the matrix no matter what.
I've been debating the whole 'the real world is another matrix' idea. I saw the movie 2 times already, and on the second time I spent the entire time thinking about that. There are some places where it makes sense, but there are other places where it doesn't. I do have to say that if the 'real world' is another matrix , then Agent Smith knows about it. In the very beginning of the movie after Neo defeats the agents and flies off, Smith says "It's happening again", then a second Smith finishes with "Just like before". This whole thing could be that the 'agents' don't know about the 'cycle of the matrix' because they are 'there to do a job' like the other programs that govern the crows and the wind and such like the Oracle said.
There are two major things that make me think that the 'real world' is a matrix as well. First, how can they destroy Zion so many times and still have to dig new holes? Second, how was Neo able to destroy the sentinals in the real world? The whole 'system of controls' I think, may involve a second matrix. Think about it. Having a external Matrix means that some people will reject the inner matrix, but what are the chances that they will reject the external matrix as well? Redundant protection so that even if 'the one' doesn't play their game in the inner matrix, he is still in the external matrix and doesn't know it. If so, then I would have to predict that Trinity is a program and not a real human. Since it seems like the Architect wanted Neo to choose her. And that could also explain the whole 'bringing her back to life' scene. Also it would mean that the Oracle and the Keymaker were programs that knew about the 'bigger picture' and are also controls.
But as I said in my previous post, whatever is the 'real truth' Agent Smith knows what is going on. If any of you saw the preview of Matrix 3, from what I saw it seems that Agent Smith is threatening to take over all the humans still in the matrix, and that Neo has to stop him. But that seems too simple to be the entire plot of the third movie though. This is one of the reasons that I don't think that there is an external Matrix. Even though it would have made more sense logically for the machines to build a second matrix as a fail-safe.
Another thing is, I wonder how many people Neo killed with his flying at the end to save Trinity. I wonder how the 11 o'clock new will explain that too. ;-)
also, The 'matrix inside a matrix' thing could be partially right. Maybe at some point the machines were able to put Neo into a matrix/dream state, where he (and the audience) thought that he was still in the real world or matrix, but in reality Morpheus and all are trying to save him.
For the people that are like 'how can Agent Smith take over that dude?', he can change his brain patterns to sync with Smith's program. At least that's the way I see it.
I understood that as meaning like I'm supposed to die now, so don't feel bad... but I don't think the keymaker dies multiple times... that doesn't make sense... esp since the french guy was really trying to keep him...also the french guy has been around for more then one version of the matrix, no? "have seen your kind before" or something...
what I thought was intresting was the way the agents were trying to kill the keymaker as well... would they really kill him? I mean don't they need him as well? or was that just to put on a show for the humans so neo would make the "correct" choice...
The french dude's entire dialogue might have been for show... but I think that his wife betraying him hadn't happened in the past. The past 'the one's had to assault his building to take the keymaker maybe. It could also be that in the past the keymaker wasn't in his possession. Remember that the Oracle said that they didn't know what happened to him until recently. In the past, maybe the keymaker was living in an apartment somewhere like the Oracle was. Though if the past 'the one's didn't have to go through the French guy for the keymaker, then how did they meet him at all, because he said 'i have survived your predesessors and I will survive you' and 'your predesessors had more respect for me than you'.
Comments
Originally posted by torifile
I dunno. I'm a little against Neo becoming a real superhero. In the Matrix, it's NOT his physical being doing things. He's manipulating the computer programs to do what he wants. He's not really changing physics. I don't want him to be able to do that. But that's just me.
I don't know if the original idea put forward had to do with him taking on the physical abilities that he had within the Matrix. Instead, I think he meant that because Neo had development such an intimate relationship mentally with the programs within the Matrix that perhaps he had developed to the point that he could have similar influence over machines in the real world. I had a similar thought. Though I think it could go a step further and suggest that all of the people who have heightened awareness in the Matrix, ie. all of the people of Zion, could have similar abilities, though in a more limited manner than Neo, just as their abilities with in the Matrix, though impressive and beyond other humans, don't match Neo. Perhaps the reason that these few humans are unable to accept the world of the Matrix is that their minds have evolved to the point where they are more aware of the Matrix, in part due to their lifelong exposure to life with in a machine environment.
If this were the case for Neo, I wouldn't classify his abilities in the real world as his developing super powers akin to what he has in the Matrix, instead I would like to think that his abilities in the real world were a result of his inimate relationship with the machine world though his heightened awareness of machines because of his unique relationship with the Matrix. I would hope they wouldn't have him develop super human physical powers, but limit his abilities to a strong mental connection to machines and the ability to exert some limited imfluence over them.
http://www.coronaproductions.com/ubb...ML/001913.html
Would love to continue the discussion with fellow AIers in this thread.
dolphyjazz
When the last part, "Revolutions" comes out, it won't easily recapture the intrigue of the orginal, not after the gluttinous epic granduer of "Revolutions." What to do? I suggest an edit, not to add material, but rather to combine it. There just might be enough material in Reloaded and Revolutions to make a passable "Matrix 2" and leave it at that, more plot, less ballet.
It's clear to me that there was only ever one sequel in the combined efforts of the Walchowski bros, and the effort to make two more was a combination of greed, FXitis, and a little Kiwi envy.
More numbers fun: 101 (Neo's number) * 3 (Trinity's number) = 303, the room Trinity started the film in and the same room Neo ended it in.
I especially liked the idea of "planting" the love in Neo and Trinity. I watched the first one tonight and I thought she was leading Neo that way, at least.
As for the Matrix within a Matrix idea: the more I think about it, the less I like it. Not just because it's been done because we know that shit like that happens all the time, but because during the commentary on the DVD to the Matrix, the W.'s say that they intentionally colored everything in the Matrix green (or removed all blue or something like that) and the real world had lots of blue. Notice in Reloaded the abundance of blue, esp. in that last scene. So either they changed their minds regarding the coloring (which I doubt given the care taken with the films) or it's the real world.
BTW, what was Neo selling in the first movie? And what book did he get the disk out of? I wonder if there's any significance there.
Yeah, I noticed all that blue/green trixyness, I liked it, though the green saturation of the matrix made neo and many other characters look deathly ill.
I BELIEVE he was selling some sort of pirate software, I don't know why it would be worth that much money, or why he would be selling it to a bunch of neo-goths. But Perhaps, they are hackers like him, and the software that he provided will enable them to get access to something desirable for them(money, drugs, groceries)
I don't recall what the book was in the beginning, but I'd bet it is a copy of some philosphy book that the wachowski's really like.
Originally posted by Wrong Robust
I don't recall what the book was in the beginning, but I'd bet it is a copy of some philosphy book that the wachowski's really like.
Simulacra & Simulation by Baurillard. Google is your friend
In Simulacra and Simulation, French social theorist Jean Baudrillard argues that our "postmodern" culture is a world of signs that have made a fundamental break from referring to "reality."
_ Baudrillard's concept of simulation is the creation of the real through conceptual or "mythological" models which have no connection or origin in reality. The model becomes the determinant of our perception of reality-- the real. Homes, relationships, fashion, art, music, all become dictated by their ideal models presented through the media.
Read the rest here. That was easy enough.
"You're my savior man. My own personal Jesus Christ." Foreshadowing. The more I see the Matrix the more I realize that it was extremely well done and thought out.
Originally posted by torifile
Good stuff, dolphy. Thanks for the link.
More numbers fun: 101 (Neo's number) * 3 (Trinity's number) = 303, the room Trinity started the film in and the same room Neo ended it in.
room 101 is the room in 1984 where Big Brother gets to your deepest inner thoughts . . .
Originally posted by pfflam
room 101 is the room in 1984 where Big Brother gets to your deepest inner thoughts . . .
I haven't read that one. It's on my list of things to read, though. BTW, it was also Neo's apartment number.
its as if nobody reads my posts . . .that's what I was responding to above . . . . they are in dialogue with contemporary philosophy and have probably outgrown or transformed their ideas beyond Baudrillard . . . why?!?!
because Badrillard's idea has a strong nastalgia for the 'Real' he says there is not reality only an endless depth of sings refering to signs but he laments the loss of some real that he can't even call 'Real' beccause that's just a sign.
now they seem to be further where we were always allready 'in the text' sort of speak . . . meaning that reality always was a play of signs and any origin was always already an interpretation and not a fact
so naturally there will be a matrix within a matrix . . . but it will be smarter than to just be a gimmick . . .
. . . they will talk more about technology as the artifact of human evololution, meaning, that our artifacts evolve as we do . .
. . or rather, that our evolution is the evolution of our extensions through our technological artifacts
and, talk about evolution as extensions of the human body, and therefor, as a reflection of ourselves
Originally posted by torifile
BTW, it was also Neo's apartment number.
Yeah . . . it sort of screamed ..."Hey . . . notice the door number!!!"
Originally posted by pfflam
its as if nobody reads my posts . . .that's what I was responding to above . . . . they are in dialogue with contemporary philosophy and have probably outgrown or transformed their ideas beyond Baudrillard . . .
Don't take offense, pfflam, there's a lot of material to get through in this thread.
Originally posted by torifile
no i didn't mean you . . . I guess Im cryin in my soup over the lack of responces boohoo . . . . never mind . . .
Those damn things don't run mechanically. They're controlled by software.
Neo, in his choice with the Architect, came to some sort of realization: basically, yeah, i can really kick the shit out of these things.
He's just now got the equivalent of an 802.11 card in his brain, and he just used that, subconsciously, to tap into the sentinels' systems and stop them.
Or something.
I've been debating the whole 'the real world is another matrix' idea. I saw the movie 2 times already, and on the second time I spent the entire time thinking about that. There are some places where it makes sense, but there are other places where it doesn't. I do have to say that if the 'real world' is another matrix , then Agent Smith knows about it. In the very beginning of the movie after Neo defeats the agents and flies off, Smith says "It's happening again", then a second Smith finishes with "Just like before". This whole thing could be that the 'agents' don't know about the 'cycle of the matrix' because they are 'there to do a job' like the other programs that govern the crows and the wind and such like the Oracle said.
... To Be Continued ...
But as I said in my previous post, whatever is the 'real truth' Agent Smith knows what is going on. If any of you saw the preview of Matrix 3, from what I saw it seems that Agent Smith is threatening to take over all the humans still in the matrix, and that Neo has to stop him. But that seems too simple to be the entire plot of the third movie though. This is one of the reasons that I don't think that there is an external Matrix. Even though it would have made more sense logically for the machines to build a second matrix as a fail-safe.
Another thing is, I wonder how many people Neo killed with his flying at the end to save Trinity. I wonder how the 11 o'clock new will explain that too. ;-)
also, The 'matrix inside a matrix' thing could be partially right. Maybe at some point the machines were able to put Neo into a matrix/dream state, where he (and the audience) thought that he was still in the real world or matrix, but in reality Morpheus and all are trying to save him.
For the people that are like 'how can Agent Smith take over that dude?', he can change his brain patterns to sync with Smith's program. At least that's the way I see it.
Originally posted by Paul
I understood that as meaning like I'm supposed to die now, so don't feel bad... but I don't think the keymaker dies multiple times... that doesn't make sense... esp since the french guy was really trying to keep him...also the french guy has been around for more then one version of the matrix, no? "have seen your kind before" or something...
what I thought was intresting was the way the agents were trying to kill the keymaker as well... would they really kill him? I mean don't they need him as well? or was that just to put on a show for the humans so neo would make the "correct" choice...
The french dude's entire dialogue might have been for show... but I think that his wife betraying him hadn't happened in the past. The past 'the one's had to assault his building to take the keymaker maybe. It could also be that in the past the keymaker wasn't in his possession. Remember that the Oracle said that they didn't know what happened to him until recently. In the past, maybe the keymaker was living in an apartment somewhere like the Oracle was. Though if the past 'the one's didn't have to go through the French guy for the keymaker, then how did they meet him at all, because he said 'i have survived your predesessors and I will survive you' and 'your predesessors had more respect for me than you'.