My point being is that the iPod and iPhone has always been priced in line with the competition. Their superior user experience along with a competitive price point lead to market domination...
Last I checked Zunes or Andriod phones weren't considerable cheaper (if at all) than Apple's products... Apple's iPad, while potentially a great product, isn't price competitively at this point with Netbooks. If that changes in the future is unknown at this point.
Whether they are priced "in line" or not is debatable, but you're now making a substantially different argument. People do indeed buy user experience, and other less than tangible qualities. Clearly. This is what Apple has always sold. But again, I think you are making the mistake of assuming that Apple is going after the netbook market. If they wanted to do that, they'd be selling netbooks. Instead they are selling the iPad, which doesn't seem even remotely like a netbook to me. In fact its dissimilarity to netbooks is what a lot of geekdom seems to hate about it.
Windows 7 Media Center is awesome if you couple it with a great front end like Media Browser. I've currently got a W7 PC hooked up to my 50" plasma. It does everything. PC Games, iTunes Music, TV shows, Hulu, Websites, Blu-Rays, Arcade Emulator...the works.
Wireless keyboard (DiNovo). Xbox 360 wireless controller for games (I know, mouse+keyboard is better, but I grew up on consoles and I don't have time to learn a new way to play. Plus keyboard doesn't work too well on PacMan.
The best part is that I built my PC for <$400 + some old parts lying around. How much is an Apple TV again?
Apple limited the functionality of the AppleTV from day one for some unknown reason... Perhaps we will know in the future...
But a device that didn't allow a user do to simple things like creating a movie playlist instead of just listing all of your movies in one large list is pathetic...
Apple TV is limited because of the control. With all the patent they've been filing related to a controller for something that looks like a Apple TV, I am sure they are working on something.
What point don't I get that iPhone early adopters went nuts when Apple dropped the price by 200.00 and then got rid of the 4GB model? Because thats exactly what happened, if that wasn't fact SJ wouldn't have offered a 100.00 Apple Store credit to try and calm things down.
It appears you just dont get it.
I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the fact that they're not just going to randomly drop the iPad's price like you keep suggesting. They'd have no reason to.
Whether they are priced "in line" or not is debatable, but you're now making a substantially different argument. People do indeed buy user experience, and other less than tangible qualities. Clearly. This is what Apple has always sold. But again, I think you are making the mistake of assuming that Apple is going after the netbook market. If they wanted to do that, they'd be selling netbooks. Instead they are selling the iPad, which doesn't seem even remotely like a netbook to me. In fact its dissimilarity to netbooks is what a lot of geekdom seems to hate about it.
That is why Windows still dominates the market after all of these years with their great user experience... Price is everything in consumer space. User experience is a value add.
Wow, so they're charging you now for something that won't ship for almost 3 weeks? I don't think the charge will stay as pending until the iPad ships.
When I pre-ordered my two iPhone 3GSs last year Apple held the total amount for one day then released it. They didn't charge me again until they shipped them. It depends on your bank. My bank usually show a hold few hours later. The actual charge usually take 48 hours to show up.
Apple TV is limited because of the control. With all the patent they've been filing related to a controller for something that looks like a Apple TV, I am sure they are working on something.
Nonsense. Apple crippled the AppleTV from day one. The whole thing was conceptually flawed from day one.
You keep changing your tune as Apple's updated numbers trickle in.
Just face facts and admit that this thing is selling like crazy and will continue to sell like crazy, whether that's reflected in hourly numbers, daily numbers, weekly numbers, etc.
Apple: Introducing the iPad
Reaction: No one will buy this overpriced large iPod Touch
Apple: We've sold X million iPads in 2010
Reaction: This is just Apple fans. No one else want to buy it.
Apple: We've sold 2X million iPads in 2012
Reaction: They can't keep this momentum. There are better products
That is why Windows still dominates the market after all of these years with their great user experience... Price is everything in consumer space. User experience is a value add.
Again, that's not even close to a response to anything I said. You seem to be trying to dodge your claim that "price always wins," when you must know full well that it does not. I doubt very much that you conduct your life that way, any more than any other human being does. User experience can't be detached, like it's an option of some sort. Intangibles are a part of the product. Every product you could think of, and we could name them all day long.
Does anybody know the finance Formula for Projected Share Price Increase for a given amount of Unit sales?
-I'm trying to make the beginnings of a guess at how much x sales of the iPad might add to AAPL's share price at the Minimum.
Is it: ( (Projected Unit Sales * Avg. Unit Price * Avg. Profit Margin) / # Shares Outstanding) * Avg. PE == Projected Increase per Share -?
IE: ((700k iPads @ $700 avg.p * 0.20PM) / 906.79MMShrs) * 22PE =~approx. $2.38-ish Increase in Stock Share price; other collateral + multiplicative factors like AppStores, notwithstanding?
(-even though, for some reason it seems the overall share price will probably go up 20x that number in the same time)
Any ideas/corrections on the Formula, etc. Anyone?
-thx, SKMDC
You can make up any formula you like, it might be just as valid as one invented by a professional analyst. The big problem with yours is the concept of "average P/E" -- there's really no such thing.
The reality is, the stock price isn't going to react in a deterministic fashion based on a formula anyway.
Again, that's not even close to a response to anything I said. You seem to be trying to dodge your claim that "price always wins," when you must know full well that it does not. I doubt very much that you conduct your life that way, any more than any other human being does. User experience can't be detached, like it's an option of some sort. Intangibles are a part of the product. Every product you could think of, and we could name them all day long.
I have already said I will most likely get an iPad even more so now that it looks like true multi tasking is going to be available. However this is not a product I would pre order, its something I would like to use first and then decide.
So are you buy two because "If you want two even better you can get two and some Alabama chrome (duct tape) and tape those two together and at least then you could multitask."?!
Nonsense. Apple crippled the AppleTV from day one. The whole thing was conceptually flawed from day one.
You could say it was ahead of it's time, a device for an all download world which just didn't exist then and still doesn't.
Apple should have just been more level headed and made a base Apple TV with a DVD drive, and a high end model with a BD drive. Without optical the ATV was doomed to be a niche product, and a very expensive, and sadly too locked down and limited one at that.
It could still be saved through the type of all you can watch subscription models as offered by Netflix, LoveFilm etc, but I guess the studios don't want Apple to succeed here. Content is king as the saying goes, and Apple TV with it's ultra expensive and very limited store just isn't worth bothering with any more.
Personally I use my ATV from time to time to rent HD movies, but an iTunes HD rental is £4.50 for highly compressed 720p with lossy audio. I can get a BD in the mail from LoveFilm for £2 with beautiful 1080p video, lossless audio, and some behind the scenes extras to boot. ATV may be more convenient, but the sums just don't add up.
ATV is sadly destined to go the way of the iPod Hi-Fi and the cube. (and in my opinion, the iPad...)
I have an TV, and you are right. It is a really great idea, but just missing on a few key things to make it truly outstanding.
It's almost an entertainment center replacement, but no HDMI, lack of support for different codecs, etc. No coax or cable-box replacement capability. Lack of content( isn't the hardware's fault, or the software for that matter, but still) And no optical drive.
I suppose if it had such things it would be a mini.
Well, you're absolutely wrong on one point. From day one Apple TV has shipped with an HDMI connector. Still does.
How is the AppleTV supposed to replace a cable box when those things are usually tied to a provider and not interchangeable? Asking for this seems like a fantasy world request.
I'll agree that an optical drive DVD or BD would certainly add functionality and usefulness but how does not having one hurt the device? It's not like you have to choose between AppleTV or a DVD/BD player. You can have both. Adding it to AppleTV is only about consolidation and not added functionality.
For me, the beauty of AppleTV is it allows me to enjoy photos, podcasts, video podcasts, music, music videos, internet radio, TV shows, Movies and YouTube on my HD TV from my couch and it's accomplished with a simple effective interface. I do have my issues with the device, but they've never been so large as to damage my enjoyment. I've ripped my DVDs and can enjoy them on AppleTV with chapter marks and commentaries.
Most of my friends who come over and witness the AppleTV think it's a great device. Most comment how pictures especially are very impressive on the HD TV. Yet, only one friend of mine has gotten one. A tipping point has obviously not been reached. I think Apple is continuing to work on finding out what that point will be.
I don't believe it will be more content or BD or even the much touted DVR. It will probably need to be all of those plus maybe a Wii-like pointer interface to distinguish it and give it a 'wow' factor. Or maybe it will be the streaming from the cloud service that will get people excited about AppleTV. Maybe it's the configuring and synching that turns non-geeks off.
Nonsense. Apple crippled the AppleTV from day one. The whole thing was conceptually flawed from day one.
I'm curious how you see it as crippled. I've been using it from day one with much enjoyment. There are a few restraints, but I haven't felt it was a crippled experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kotatsu
ATV is sadly destined to go the way of the iPod Hi-Fi and the cube. (and in my opinion, the iPad...)
Maybe, but it sure is taking AppleTV a long time to disappear. It's been on the market for 3 years now. We also have recent remarks from Apple saying they are still interested in working on the device and staying the market.
That is why Windows still dominates the market after all of these years with their great user experience... Price is everything in consumer space. User experience is a value add.
Please. I'll try to keep that in mind as I'm reinstalling Win7 again, because in less than a month, 3 friends have asked me to wipe their computer due to the same Myspace malware infection. People don't consciously buy Windows, they use it because it came on the PC they got for $299 with a mail-in rebate from Best Buy.
Yep I agree. People on this board need to take off their RDF glassess... Price always wins in consumer space. People have to realize that $500 is a lot of money for some people. Not everyone can afford such devices.
And people should realize, that perhaps the iPad isn't marketed to those that find $500 to be a lot of money.
If cash is short, don't blow it on frivolous things, be it an iPad, or some piece-of-sh*t netbook.
Comments
My point being is that the iPod and iPhone has always been priced in line with the competition. Their superior user experience along with a competitive price point lead to market domination...
Last I checked Zunes or Andriod phones weren't considerable cheaper (if at all) than Apple's products... Apple's iPad, while potentially a great product, isn't price competitively at this point with Netbooks. If that changes in the future is unknown at this point.
Whether they are priced "in line" or not is debatable, but you're now making a substantially different argument. People do indeed buy user experience, and other less than tangible qualities. Clearly. This is what Apple has always sold. But again, I think you are making the mistake of assuming that Apple is going after the netbook market. If they wanted to do that, they'd be selling netbooks. Instead they are selling the iPad, which doesn't seem even remotely like a netbook to me. In fact its dissimilarity to netbooks is what a lot of geekdom seems to hate about it.
Windows 7 Media Center is awesome if you couple it with a great front end like Media Browser. I've currently got a W7 PC hooked up to my 50" plasma. It does everything. PC Games, iTunes Music, TV shows, Hulu, Websites, Blu-Rays, Arcade Emulator...the works.
Wireless keyboard (DiNovo). Xbox 360 wireless controller for games (I know, mouse+keyboard is better, but I grew up on consoles and I don't have time to learn a new way to play. Plus keyboard doesn't work too well on PacMan.
The best part is that I built my PC for <$400 + some old parts lying around. How much is an Apple TV again?
For more info go here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26
or
http://www.mediabrowser.tv/
Oh I wouldn't deny its capabilities. I don't like it from a usability standpoint. I'll check out the links though. Thanks.
Apple limited the functionality of the AppleTV from day one for some unknown reason... Perhaps we will know in the future...
But a device that didn't allow a user do to simple things like creating a movie playlist instead of just listing all of your movies in one large list is pathetic...
Apple TV is limited because of the control. With all the patent they've been filing related to a controller for something that looks like a Apple TV, I am sure they are working on something.
What point don't I get that iPhone early adopters went nuts when Apple dropped the price by 200.00 and then got rid of the 4GB model? Because thats exactly what happened, if that wasn't fact SJ wouldn't have offered a 100.00 Apple Store credit to try and calm things down.
It appears you just dont get it.
I wasn't talking about that, I was talking about the fact that they're not just going to randomly drop the iPad's price like you keep suggesting. They'd have no reason to.
Whether they are priced "in line" or not is debatable, but you're now making a substantially different argument. People do indeed buy user experience, and other less than tangible qualities. Clearly. This is what Apple has always sold. But again, I think you are making the mistake of assuming that Apple is going after the netbook market. If they wanted to do that, they'd be selling netbooks. Instead they are selling the iPad, which doesn't seem even remotely like a netbook to me. In fact its dissimilarity to netbooks is what a lot of geekdom seems to hate about it.
That is why Windows still dominates the market after all of these years with their great user experience... Price is everything in consumer space. User experience is a value add.
Wow, so they're charging you now for something that won't ship for almost 3 weeks? I don't think the charge will stay as pending until the iPad ships.
When I pre-ordered my two iPhone 3GSs last year Apple held the total amount for one day then released it. They didn't charge me again until they shipped them. It depends on your bank. My bank usually show a hold few hours later. The actual charge usually take 48 hours to show up.
Apple TV is limited because of the control. With all the patent they've been filing related to a controller for something that looks like a Apple TV, I am sure they are working on something.
Nonsense. Apple crippled the AppleTV from day one. The whole thing was conceptually flawed from day one.
Does anybody know the finance Formula for Projected Share Price Increase for a given amount of Unit sales?
-I'm trying to make the beginnings of a guess at how much x sales of the iPad might add to AAPL's share price at the Minimum.
Is it: ( (Projected Unit Sales * Avg. Unit Price * Avg. Profit Margin) / # Shares Outstanding) * Avg. PE == Projected Increase per Share -?
IE: ((700k iPads @ $700 avg.p * 0.20PM) / 906.79MMShrs) * 22PE =~approx. $2.38-ish Increase in Stock Share price; other collateral + multiplicative factors like AppStores, notwithstanding?
(-even though, for some reason it seems the overall share price will probably go up 20x that number in the same time)
Any ideas/corrections on the Formula, etc. Anyone?
-thx, SKMDC
You keep changing your tune as Apple's updated numbers trickle in.
Just face facts and admit that this thing is selling like crazy and will continue to sell like crazy, whether that's reflected in hourly numbers, daily numbers, weekly numbers, etc.
Apple: Introducing the iPad
Reaction: No one will buy this overpriced large iPod Touch
Apple: We've sold X million iPads in 2010
Reaction: This is just Apple fans. No one else want to buy it.
Apple: We've sold 2X million iPads in 2012
Reaction: They can't keep this momentum. There are better products
Apple: We've sold 3X million iPads in 2012
Reaction: We've told you the growth will stagnate
.
.
.
You get the idea.
That is why Windows still dominates the market after all of these years with their great user experience... Price is everything in consumer space. User experience is a value add.
Again, that's not even close to a response to anything I said. You seem to be trying to dodge your claim that "price always wins," when you must know full well that it does not. I doubt very much that you conduct your life that way, any more than any other human being does. User experience can't be detached, like it's an option of some sort. Intangibles are a part of the product. Every product you could think of, and we could name them all day long.
@anantksundaram et al:
Does anybody know the finance Formula for Projected Share Price Increase for a given amount of Unit sales?
-I'm trying to make the beginnings of a guess at how much x sales of the iPad might add to AAPL's share price at the Minimum.
Is it: ( (Projected Unit Sales * Avg. Unit Price * Avg. Profit Margin) / # Shares Outstanding) * Avg. PE == Projected Increase per Share -?
IE: ((700k iPads @ $700 avg.p * 0.20PM) / 906.79MMShrs) * 22PE =~approx. $2.38-ish Increase in Stock Share price; other collateral + multiplicative factors like AppStores, notwithstanding?
(-even though, for some reason it seems the overall share price will probably go up 20x that number in the same time)
Any ideas/corrections on the Formula, etc. Anyone?
-thx, SKMDC
You can make up any formula you like, it might be just as valid as one invented by a professional analyst. The big problem with yours is the concept of "average P/E" -- there's really no such thing.
The reality is, the stock price isn't going to react in a deterministic fashion based on a formula anyway.
Again, that's not even close to a response to anything I said. You seem to be trying to dodge your claim that "price always wins," when you must know full well that it does not. I doubt very much that you conduct your life that way, any more than any other human being does. User experience can't be detached, like it's an option of some sort. Intangibles are a part of the product. Every product you could think of, and we could name them all day long.
You win! I give up.
@anantksundaram et al:
Does anybody know the finance Formula for Projected Share Price Increase for a given amount of Unit sales?
-I'm trying to make the beginnings of a guess at how much x sales of the iPad might add to AAPL's share price at the Minimum.
Is it: ( (Projected Unit Sales * Avg. Unit Price * Avg. Profit Margin) / # Shares Outstanding) * Avg. PE == Projected Increase per Share -?
IE: ((700k iPads @ $700 avg.p * 0.20PM) / 906.79MMShrs) * 22PE =~approx. $2.38-ish Increase in Stock Share price; other collateral + multiplicative factors like AppStores, notwithstanding?
(-even though, for some reason it seems the overall share price will probably go up 20x that number in the same time)
Any ideas/corrections on the Formula, etc. Anyone?
-thx, SKMDC
There is no such formula. Period.
And anyone who tells you otherwise is lying or clueless or has a pot of gold to sell you at the end of a rainbow.
I have already said I will most likely get an iPad even more so now that it looks like true multi tasking is going to be available. However this is not a product I would pre order, its something I would like to use first and then decide.
So are you buy two because "If you want two even better you can get two and some Alabama chrome (duct tape) and tape those two together and at least then you could multitask."?!
Nonsense. Apple crippled the AppleTV from day one. The whole thing was conceptually flawed from day one.
You could say it was ahead of it's time, a device for an all download world which just didn't exist then and still doesn't.
Apple should have just been more level headed and made a base Apple TV with a DVD drive, and a high end model with a BD drive. Without optical the ATV was doomed to be a niche product, and a very expensive, and sadly too locked down and limited one at that.
It could still be saved through the type of all you can watch subscription models as offered by Netflix, LoveFilm etc, but I guess the studios don't want Apple to succeed here. Content is king as the saying goes, and Apple TV with it's ultra expensive and very limited store just isn't worth bothering with any more.
Personally I use my ATV from time to time to rent HD movies, but an iTunes HD rental is £4.50 for highly compressed 720p with lossy audio. I can get a BD in the mail from LoveFilm for £2 with beautiful 1080p video, lossless audio, and some behind the scenes extras to boot. ATV may be more convenient, but the sums just don't add up.
ATV is sadly destined to go the way of the iPod Hi-Fi and the cube. (and in my opinion, the iPad...)
+1
I have an TV, and you are right. It is a really great idea, but just missing on a few key things to make it truly outstanding.
It's almost an entertainment center replacement, but no HDMI, lack of support for different codecs, etc. No coax or cable-box replacement capability. Lack of content( isn't the hardware's fault, or the software for that matter, but still) And no optical drive.
I suppose if it had such things it would be a mini.
Well, you're absolutely wrong on one point. From day one Apple TV has shipped with an HDMI connector. Still does.
How is the AppleTV supposed to replace a cable box when those things are usually tied to a provider and not interchangeable? Asking for this seems like a fantasy world request.
I'll agree that an optical drive DVD or BD would certainly add functionality and usefulness but how does not having one hurt the device? It's not like you have to choose between AppleTV or a DVD/BD player. You can have both. Adding it to AppleTV is only about consolidation and not added functionality.
For me, the beauty of AppleTV is it allows me to enjoy photos, podcasts, video podcasts, music, music videos, internet radio, TV shows, Movies and YouTube on my HD TV from my couch and it's accomplished with a simple effective interface. I do have my issues with the device, but they've never been so large as to damage my enjoyment. I've ripped my DVDs and can enjoy them on AppleTV with chapter marks and commentaries.
Most of my friends who come over and witness the AppleTV think it's a great device. Most comment how pictures especially are very impressive on the HD TV. Yet, only one friend of mine has gotten one. A tipping point has obviously not been reached. I think Apple is continuing to work on finding out what that point will be.
I don't believe it will be more content or BD or even the much touted DVR. It will probably need to be all of those plus maybe a Wii-like pointer interface to distinguish it and give it a 'wow' factor. Or maybe it will be the streaming from the cloud service that will get people excited about AppleTV. Maybe it's the configuring and synching that turns non-geeks off.
Nonsense. Apple crippled the AppleTV from day one. The whole thing was conceptually flawed from day one.
I'm curious how you see it as crippled. I've been using it from day one with much enjoyment. There are a few restraints, but I haven't felt it was a crippled experience.
ATV is sadly destined to go the way of the iPod Hi-Fi and the cube. (and in my opinion, the iPad...)
Maybe, but it sure is taking AppleTV a long time to disappear. It's been on the market for 3 years now. We also have recent remarks from Apple saying they are still interested in working on the device and staying the market.
That is why Windows still dominates the market after all of these years with their great user experience... Price is everything in consumer space. User experience is a value add.
Please. I'll try to keep that in mind as I'm reinstalling Win7 again, because in less than a month, 3 friends have asked me to wipe their computer due to the same Myspace malware infection. People don't consciously buy Windows, they use it because it came on the PC they got for $299 with a mail-in rebate from Best Buy.
Yep I agree. People on this board need to take off their RDF glassess... Price always wins in consumer space. People have to realize that $500 is a lot of money for some people. Not everyone can afford such devices.
And people should realize, that perhaps the iPad isn't marketed to those that find $500 to be a lot of money.
If cash is short, don't blow it on frivolous things, be it an iPad, or some piece-of-sh*t netbook.
All these Apple cultists, yet you seem to be a devout follower, trolling in just about every thread...
Troll much? You must really love living underneath bridges.