Since when is the ability to run any OS a criterion for being a computer? By that definition, an IBM mainframe is not a computer.
And as far as being able to do 'anything and everything',
1) since my iPad can do many things a PC can't, does that mean only iPads are computers?
2) I can point right now to 10,000 granular apps that replace the functionality of general purpose spreadsheets, and do the job far better. Saying that pots aren't pots unless you throw and fire the clay yourself is essentially the argument that's being made here.
The argument about what is and isn't a 'computer' is essentially the digital priesthood crying in the night about their impending loss of power.
Again, show me a canonical definition of 'computer' that isn't more than just a self justifying opinion that takes the attributes of the device I support.
Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.
Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.
I think part of the problem is confusion/disagreement over what "computer" and "PC" means. It can be argued that an iPad is a computer and that it's a personal computer.
We need a new term to define what used to be known as a PC (x86/PowerPC laptop, desktop, netbook, etc) instead of arguing over terminology.
Oh... Once we get Windows everywhere... Then a tablet will be a personal computer!
FWIW, I had a personal computer in 1978 that wouldn't qualify in any of the categories you describe...
It predates them all. I parlayed my personal computer into a business and my wife and I retired in 1989, at age 50... pretty damn personal if you ask me.
BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?
I swear to god, Paul Thurott was discussing the reference clunker handed out by MS at the recent dev conference on Twit's Windows Weekly, and said that it was really a computer (as opposed to an iOS 'device') because it had a fan.
Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.
Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.
Don't try to fool me with civility!!
You're still missing the point. If your point is that its not a 'personal' computer, then I question your definition of 'personal'. It doesn't get more 'personal' than an iPad.
If its about functionality, are you saying that if you can find one feature of a previous device that isn't carried forward into a subsequent incarnation, then all definitions stop at that point?
Most of the functionality of a 'personal computer' has become irrelevant to all but a small class of users.
The things that made the PC world-changing have ALL been brought forward into the iPad.
Again, defining 'self programability' as the defining feature of a PC is a self-serving definition, and that's the only differentiation I've heard anyone come up with yet.
Oh... Once we get Windows everywhere... Then a tablet will be a personal computer!
FWIW, I had a personal computer in 1978 that wouldn't qualify in any of the categories you describe...
It predates them all. I parlayed my personal computer into a business and my wife and I retired in 1989, at age 50... pretty damn personal if you ask me.
BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?
At the beginning Apple was positioning it between a smartphone and a desktop/laptop, and it REQUIRED you to sync with an existing PC for it to even function.
With "PC Free" in iOS5, I think this distinction becomes even more murky.
And you can't deny that some of this is marketing speak. The term "PC" has a lot of baggage attached to it. It means something complicated and imposing to a large group of people. By positioning it as a "PostPC" product, Apple is hoping to leave a lot of that behind. And in my mind they've succeeded. BOTH my grandparents now have iPads as their ONLY computer, and they're doing everything they would have done on a traditional box with it.
Every PC form factor comes with limitations. An iMac, or ANY laptop aren't as expandable as a tower, but they're still considered PCs (of course).
A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do. For some people, an iPad meets that definition.
Ultimately, the reason why I think iPads should be included into PC marketshare is because someone- albeit a limited sliver of the market, IS buying the iPad as a PC replacement. That being the case- how can it NOT be included in the same category?
Wow... That's the best definition of pc I've seen since Apple coined the term 34 years ago.
While I have enjoyed reading this debate (and ConradJoe hasn't been trolling so stop throwing that word around for anyone with an argument that doesn't align with yours) I noticed one thing that seemed to be glossed over.
If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?
Ahem. Moving on from the semantics... This trend shows another big advantage to Apple of their vertical integration. For every additional unit sold the OS component cost reduces, as the fixed OS development cost is spread out across more and more units, increasing the profit margin on each device sold.
So we've gone from "the iPad isn't a personal computer because you have to connect it to a Mac/PC running iTunes to activate it" to "iPads aren't personal computers because they can't do as much as Mac OS/Windows"? I guess that makes only Windows tablets personal computers, but what about Windows 8 that will ue a new UI specifically for the touch UI?
Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. The idea that it's not a personal computer unless users can have carte blanche access to delete root files that will brick their machine is a pretty lame excuse. I'd think the term personal would be a big enough clue as to what a personal computer is. After all, the iPad does a lot more and is a lot more powerful than most of the history of "PC"s.
Not if you tell us about it.
Another one of these threads. I remember in the last one I said 20 years ago a personal computer was something you could fit through the front door of your house.
With todays technology I think we have lost any standard definition of a "personal computer".
I would say the fact that AirPrint has grown from only being able to print to a few HP printer to Canon, Epson, HP and Lexmark enabled printer and it has somewhat of a file system it has come a long way. It can run an office suite along with photo and video editing. Not to mention with iCloud the needs to backup to a desktop is no longer required.
I would say in many ways not only could someone say the iPad is a personal computer but on many levels the iPhone could also fit into that catagory.
Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.
Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.
Wrong! Most PCs are in fact, less capable than the iPad, which is why the term PC will go away in respect of describing something useful.
If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by extremeskater
I would say in many ways not only could someone say the iPad is a personal computer but on many levels the iPhone could also fit into that catagory.
Using 11thIndian's defintion which I think is great, "A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do." I suppose a smartphone or PMP might fit that build, but I doubt that many would consider it a replacement for a standard PC.
Where a user might have used a notebook for casual computing or have been tied to a desktop they are finding the iPad to fit the majority of their PC needs. I've even read about plenty of longtime notebook users going for a desktop for their purchase because the iPad suits their mobile needs sufficiently and in many ways better.
computer that is for post computer world? it the iPad a personal computer, well, not according to its creator at least...
I can't believe people are still struggling with the iPad and I guess there-in lies its success. It is NOT perceived as a computer by millions of people...
... but clearly it is a computer. How can anyone here in this forum dispute that? What do you think is inside an iPad? Attach a mouse (if there was an app) and a keyboard - would that make it more 'computer like'? Of course the iPhone is a computer. What else? A rotary analogue device with a clever facia? How often do you hear mention of a car's 'computer'? Well, it isn't a Dell Tower or iMac mounted someplace out of sight, its micro processor.
While I have enjoyed reading this debate (and ConradJoe hasn't been trolling so stop throwing that word around for anyone with an argument that doesn't align with yours) I noticed one thing that seemed to be glossed over.
If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?
I guess the author of the article was not content with Apple being the world's largest company, the largest manufacturer of tablet devices, the manufacturer of the most popular brand of touch screen phones, or the most profitable consumer electronics company in the world. Nope that wasn't enough.
Comments
Interesting since
1) you didn't address the point at hand, and
2) your side is essentially committing the sin you accuse the other of. Redefining words.
Again... show me the definition of 'computer' that excludes the iPad. One that isn't pulled out of a convenient orifice.
... or perhaps more accurately, personal computer, which it definitely is.
All the best.
Since when is the ability to run any OS a criterion for being a computer? By that definition, an IBM mainframe is not a computer.
And as far as being able to do 'anything and everything',
1) since my iPad can do many things a PC can't, does that mean only iPads are computers?
2) I can point right now to 10,000 granular apps that replace the functionality of general purpose spreadsheets, and do the job far better. Saying that pots aren't pots unless you throw and fire the clay yourself is essentially the argument that's being made here.
The argument about what is and isn't a 'computer' is essentially the digital priesthood crying in the night about their impending loss of power.
Again, show me a canonical definition of 'computer' that isn't more than just a self justifying opinion that takes the attributes of the device I support.
Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.
Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.
I think part of the problem is confusion/disagreement over what "computer" and "PC" means. It can be argued that an iPad is a computer and that it's a personal computer.
We need a new term to define what used to be known as a PC (x86/PowerPC laptop, desktop, netbook, etc) instead of arguing over terminology.
Oh... Once we get Windows everywhere... Then a tablet will be a personal computer!
FWIW, I had a personal computer in 1978 that wouldn't qualify in any of the categories you describe...
It predates them all. I parlayed my personal computer into a business and my wife and I retired in 1989, at age 50... pretty damn personal if you ask me.
BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?
Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.
Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.
Don't try to fool me with civility!!
You're still missing the point. If your point is that its not a 'personal' computer, then I question your definition of 'personal'. It doesn't get more 'personal' than an iPad.
If its about functionality, are you saying that if you can find one feature of a previous device that isn't carried forward into a subsequent incarnation, then all definitions stop at that point?
Most of the functionality of a 'personal computer' has become irrelevant to all but a small class of users.
The things that made the PC world-changing have ALL been brought forward into the iPad.
Again, defining 'self programability' as the defining feature of a PC is a self-serving definition, and that's the only differentiation I've heard anyone come up with yet.
Oh... Once we get Windows everywhere... Then a tablet will be a personal computer!
FWIW, I had a personal computer in 1978 that wouldn't qualify in any of the categories you describe...
It predates them all. I parlayed my personal computer into a business and my wife and I retired in 1989, at age 50... pretty damn personal if you ask me.
BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?
ROTFLMAO
The truth is that the form and function of the PC has changed to service the user in this case.
+ one
At the beginning Apple was positioning it between a smartphone and a desktop/laptop, and it REQUIRED you to sync with an existing PC for it to even function.
With "PC Free" in iOS5, I think this distinction becomes even more murky.
And you can't deny that some of this is marketing speak. The term "PC" has a lot of baggage attached to it. It means something complicated and imposing to a large group of people. By positioning it as a "PostPC" product, Apple is hoping to leave a lot of that behind. And in my mind they've succeeded. BOTH my grandparents now have iPads as their ONLY computer, and they're doing everything they would have done on a traditional box with it.
Every PC form factor comes with limitations. An iMac, or ANY laptop aren't as expandable as a tower, but they're still considered PCs (of course).
A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do. For some people, an iPad meets that definition.
Ultimately, the reason why I think iPads should be included into PC marketshare is because someone- albeit a limited sliver of the market, IS buying the iPad as a PC replacement. That being the case- how can it NOT be included in the same category?
Wow... That's the best definition of pc I've seen since Apple coined the term 34 years ago.
If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?
It's all relative. Had you showed the iPad to someone in 1988 would they have declared that it wasn't a personal computer?
So... in some narrow perception of what is and what isn't a personal computer.... some people still believe that the iPad is not a pc.
Okay... whatever.
The ipad is not a computer very simply:
Apple says it is for a "post-PC" world...
computer that is for post computer world? it the iPad a personal computer, well, not according to its creator at least...
So we've gone from "the iPad isn't a personal computer because you have to connect it to a Mac/PC running iTunes to activate it" to "iPads aren't personal computers because they can't do as much as Mac OS/Windows"? I guess that makes only Windows tablets personal computers, but what about Windows 8 that will ue a new UI specifically for the touch UI?
Sounds like a lot of sour grapes to me. The idea that it's not a personal computer unless users can have carte blanche access to delete root files that will brick their machine is a pretty lame excuse. I'd think the term personal would be a big enough clue as to what a personal computer is. After all, the iPad does a lot more and is a lot more powerful than most of the history of "PC"s.
Not if you tell us about it.
Another one of these threads. I remember in the last one I said 20 years ago a personal computer was something you could fit through the front door of your house.
With todays technology I think we have lost any standard definition of a "personal computer".
I would say the fact that AirPrint has grown from only being able to print to a few HP printer to Canon, Epson, HP and Lexmark enabled printer and it has somewhat of a file system it has come a long way. It can run an office suite along with photo and video editing. Not to mention with iCloud the needs to backup to a desktop is no longer required.
I would say in many ways not only could someone say the iPad is a personal computer but on many levels the iPhone could also fit into that catagory.
Exactly, I would not include an IBM mainframe into the category of the "PC Market". Sure, a mainframe is probably more powerful, but it doesn't perform the same functions.
Just like the iPad is also powerful and has a lot of features, but can't perform as many functions as even the cheapest ultra light netbook. They are simply a different class of devices.
Wrong! Most PCs are in fact, less capable than the iPad, which is why the term PC will go away in respect of describing something useful.
Seriously
The argument to this article is if the iPad is a computer?
Who cares, I mean really... is it that big of a deal if and iPad is or is not a computer?
People are getting insulting because they disagree if an iPad is a computer?
Wow....
How about this then:
The iPad brings personal computing to millions of people who, otherwise, would not have access to these benefits!
I forget which forum member wrote that but I had it in my sig for a couple months.
I think it's said just to disparage the iPad, but those same people will also point out how you can't play "real" games on the iPad either.
You don't see much of that on this forum these days, but go to AnandTech where the homebrew crowd still can't accept Apple in their DIYer world.
Ha! Speak of the devil!
If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?
I would say in many ways not only could someone say the iPad is a personal computer but on many levels the iPhone could also fit into that catagory.
Using 11thIndian's defintion which I think is great, "A PC isn't defined as a device that allows you do to everything, it's a device that allows you to do everything you want to do." I suppose a smartphone or PMP might fit that build, but I doubt that many would consider it a replacement for a standard PC.
Where a user might have used a notebook for casual computing or have been tied to a desktop they are finding the iPad to fit the majority of their PC needs. I've even read about plenty of longtime notebook users going for a desktop for their purchase because the iPad suits their mobile needs sufficiently and in many ways better.
The ipad is not a computer very simply:
Apple says it is for a "post-PC" world...
computer that is for post computer world? it the iPad a personal computer, well, not according to its creator at least...
I can't believe people are still struggling with the iPad and I guess there-in lies its success. It is NOT perceived as a computer by millions of people...
... but clearly it is a computer. How can anyone here in this forum dispute that? What do you think is inside an iPad? Attach a mouse (if there was an app) and a keyboard - would that make it more 'computer like'? Of course the iPhone is a computer. What else? A rotary analogue device with a clever facia? How often do you hear mention of a car's 'computer'? Well, it isn't a Dell Tower or iMac mounted someplace out of sight, its micro processor.
BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?
Dick is royalty around here... and this is his first speech from the throne (that we know about anyway).
While I have enjoyed reading this debate (and ConradJoe hasn't been trolling so stop throwing that word around for anyone with an argument that doesn't align with yours) I noticed one thing that seemed to be glossed over.
If the iPad is now in the PC category why isn't the iPhone?
I guess the author of the article was not content with Apple being the world's largest company, the largest manufacturer of tablet devices, the manufacturer of the most popular brand of touch screen phones, or the most profitable consumer electronics company in the world. Nope that wasn't enough.