That's an absurd reach. There is no government system on earth that satisfies every single one of its constituents, or doesn't cause some suffering to those that didn't vote for it.
And people need to stop making the fallacious German comparisons. Greece has not been in a war. Greece has not lost millions of citizens. Greece does not have a bombed out infrastructure. Greece has not lost a significant portion of land to another country. Greece is simply a country that has lived beyond its means for far too long, and is now paying the price.
There is some validity to the German comparison, West Germany received substantial financial aid despite Germany being the instigator of a conflict in which they slaughtered millions and left Europe in ruins. A conflict which ironically has left its legacy on Greece and Europe to this very day.
West Germany received that aid largely to reduce the influence of communism in Europe, were it not for the communist threat it's likely Germany would have been deindustrialized by the victorious western allies and left to rot.
Arguably the political turmoil in Greece can be traced all the way back to the Greek Civil War in the aftermath of the brutal Greek occupation by... the Germans.
The Greek government got their people into the mess they're in, but the Greek people themselves also had a hand in the mistakes. They voted for socialism in response to the failures of socialism. They need to be kicked out of the EU.
the problem isn't socialism as other nations are socialist and not having a financial crisis nor have for a century.
Yes, you see that old man crying now and feel sorry for him, but he voted for the socialist system year after year. And when the government promises something, you as a voter have to ask yourself whether the numbers add up or not. The Ancient Greeks (inventors of logic and geometry) would have questioned whether socialism could mathematically work.
bogus because other socialist nations are fine. socialism isn't the bad word you've been taught to think it is.
Yes, accountability is such a terrible thing. Never mind the fact we give out more foreign aid than any other country on Earth, and spend countless billions on defending countries who've abdicated their responsibilities. Like Greece, for example.
how you reconcile your boot-straps view of America with the fact that he nation is trillions in debt, particularly to China? what bootstrap cognitive dissonance do you apply in the morning?
Sweden, Finland and Denmark are FAR more "socialist" than Greece. They rank far above the United States in terms of quality of life and happiness of the constituents, and they're more democratic, too.
They just don't have the rampant problems with corruption that Greece does, and they're rather better at collecting taxes.
That's an absurd reach. There is no government system on earth that satisfies every single one of its constituents, or doesn't cause some suffering to those that didn't vote for it.
indeed. for proof all we need do is look to all the conservative gay-hating whiners complaining about marriage equality in the US. the system of checks and balances worked, and now the buffoons want to dismantle it (ex: GOP Bobby Jindal who said we should save money and abolish the Supreme Court).
"As a byproduct of Greece's recent vote for austerity,.."
Wow. Some tech writers really haven't a bloody clue.
the recent vote resulted in the banks no longer able to function as a matter of record, including credit cards. So yes, the two are related. Once banks are able to restore credit to their customers they can resume stuff like iCloud purchases. I did not take the author's comment as a position on austerity nor a comment on greece's debt (neither the self-created nor the loan-interest parts)
There is some validity to the German comparison, West Germany received substantial financial aid despite Germany being the instigator of a conflict in which they slaughtered millions and left Europe in ruins. A conflict which ironically has left its legacy on Greece and Europe to this very day.
West Germany received that aid largely to reduce the influence of communism in Europe, were it not for the communist threat it's likely Germany would have been deindustrialized by the victorious western allies and left to rot.
Arguably the political turmoil in Greece can be traced all the way back to the Greek Civil War in the aftermath of the brutal Greek occupation by... the Germans.
Excellent points. It is probably safe to assume those espousing the typical knee jerk reactions here have zero knowledge on the history of the region.
How about the IMF being accountable for the austerity conditions they placed on the original Greek loan, which plunged the Greek economy into an even deeper recession, and made the loan "impossible" (the IMF's own choice of words) to pay back?
Why is it only the foolish indebted that should be held accountable, not the foolish creditors?
It's called accountability, and yes, people are accountable and responsible for the choices that they make in life.
I have yet to see right wingers take accountability or responsibility for ANYTHING, especially when it comes to destructive policy. Is that the accountability you're referring to?
I think that most of greek people want to leave EU, but ECB (that is a private bank, not subject to EU control) does not allow until debt is repaid. This is, in my opinion, the root of all problems.
Their profligate spending has been the root of all their problems.
Why is it only the foolish indebted that should be held accountable, not the foolish creditors?
But they are, because they will be losing a lot of money.
It's like the financial scandal in the US from a few years back, where banks were giving out loans to poor people who would never be able to pay them back. That is the fault of those banks and of the people who took out those loans. I hold both responsible for their stupid and irresponsible decisions. I also hold certain politicians responsible too of course, as some of them were pressuring the banks into loaning out money to certain people who should never have received a dime.
My history of the era isn't too good but didn't Greece vote along with other countries to allow Germany's debit to be written off after WWII? This after Greece was brutalized beyond belief by the Germans too. Somewhat of a worse offense than 'having financial problems' when you think about it.
That along with Marshall Plan, $120 Billion in today's money, from the USA got Germany going again. Sometimes helping out works quite well in the long run. If not for those actions of help, Germany would be an impoverished nation probably begging for a hand out today. That or they'd have started WWIII by now.
Greece was not part of the Allied nations and the reparations issue was finally closed in 1990. Tsipras is desperately grasping at any excuse he can dredge up to avoid responsibility.
Pitiful! Why not extend it to every person in the world who is, or thinks they have financial problems? If you can't afford the luxuries of life, do without them. This is a great lesson for Greece and everyone who gets into credit card debt.
I agree. Let's start with everyone who has a higher debt than a Greek citizen, which includes you. What, you did not know? Shame on you to (like the Greeks that so irritate you) have not paid attention to the accruing debt owed by you, as a citizen.
Why not? Let the banks fail in 2008 and you get everything that is happening now, but happening then. I imagine there would be at least SOME recovery from a real collapse after 7 years, unlike what has happened now.
Originally Posted by irnchriz
Rather pathetic how some posters on this forum take glee in the suffering of others.
It’s almost as though we’re German.
Who cares? From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Originally Posted by NolaMacGuy
bogus because other socialist nations are fine. socialism isn't the bad word you've been taught to think it is.
Keep your delusional propaganda to yourself, please. Socialism only “works” when someone else is footing the bill.
I have yet to see right wingers take accountability or responsibility for ANYTHING, especially when it comes to destructive policy. Is that the accountability you're referring to?
You're right, insofar as the blame for the economic collapse and current doldrums have been caused by both Democrats and Republicans. Government is too big, too intrusive and corrupt eight ways to Sunday. Across the board term limits would be an excellent start. Elimination of the current tax code, from top to bottom (including the income tax), and replacement with the FairTax would be a huge economic boost.
It's called accountability, and yes, people are accountable and responsible for the choices that they make in life.
Operating word being "they".
You as a person owe 140k dollars in US debt, where the average Greek only owes 35k. Note that before the Greek government went honest about said debt, it ballooned from 13k. You never signed for this debt, and neither did they. If the US government went honest about their debt and the unbelievable financial system that enables it, the world economy would implode, by the way...
People are accountable and responsible for their choices, that's true. Let's try a solution: give every greek a choice between renouncing their citizenship, getting the US citizenship, the value of what they worked for in life in US dollars, and a free move to the US, or accepting the austerity measures that "might" save their economy. Let's see what they "choose".
Comments
This is the problem with Democratic Socialism.
That's an absurd reach. There is no government system on earth that satisfies every single one of its constituents, or doesn't cause some suffering to those that didn't vote for it.
There is some validity to the German comparison, West Germany received substantial financial aid despite Germany being the instigator of a conflict in which they slaughtered millions and left Europe in ruins. A conflict which ironically has left its legacy on Greece and Europe to this very day.
West Germany received that aid largely to reduce the influence of communism in Europe, were it not for the communist threat it's likely Germany would have been deindustrialized by the victorious western allies and left to rot.
Arguably the political turmoil in Greece can be traced all the way back to the Greek Civil War in the aftermath of the brutal Greek occupation by... the Germans.
the problem isn't socialism as other nations are socialist and not having a financial crisis nor have for a century.
try again. mention Obama this time.
bogus because other socialist nations are fine. socialism isn't the bad word you've been taught to think it is.
how you reconcile your boot-straps view of America with the fact that he nation is trillions in debt, particularly to China? what bootstrap cognitive dissonance do you apply in the morning?
what a silly, rose colored argument. all one has to do to negate it is point to another socialist nation.
They just don't have the rampant problems with corruption that Greece does, and they're rather better at collecting taxes.
indeed. for proof all we need do is look to all the conservative gay-hating whiners complaining about marriage equality in the US. the system of checks and balances worked, and now the buffoons want to dismantle it (ex: GOP Bobby Jindal who said we should save money and abolish the Supreme Court).
Hypocrites.
"As a byproduct of Greece's recent vote for austerity,.."
Wow. Some tech writers really haven't a bloody clue.
the recent vote resulted in the banks no longer able to function as a matter of record, including credit cards. So yes, the two are related. Once banks are able to restore credit to their customers they can resume stuff like iCloud purchases. I did not take the author's comment as a position on austerity nor a comment on greece's debt (neither the self-created nor the loan-interest parts)
Excellent points. It is probably safe to assume those espousing the typical knee jerk reactions here have zero knowledge on the history of the region.
Oh yes, I forgot: the "you deserve it" streak that is defining aspect of American society.
It's called accountability, and yes, people are accountable and responsible for the choices that they make in life.
How about the IMF being accountable for the austerity conditions they placed on the original Greek loan, which plunged the Greek economy into an even deeper recession, and made the loan "impossible" (the IMF's own choice of words) to pay back?
Why is it only the foolish indebted that should be held accountable, not the foolish creditors?
It's called accountability, and yes, people are accountable and responsible for the choices that they make in life.
I have yet to see right wingers take accountability or responsibility for ANYTHING, especially when it comes to destructive policy. Is that the accountability you're referring to?
Their profligate spending has been the root of all their problems.
Why is it only the foolish indebted that should be held accountable, not the foolish creditors?
But they are, because they will be losing a lot of money.
It's like the financial scandal in the US from a few years back, where banks were giving out loans to poor people who would never be able to pay them back. That is the fault of those banks and of the people who took out those loans. I hold both responsible for their stupid and irresponsible decisions. I also hold certain politicians responsible too of course, as some of them were pressuring the banks into loaning out money to certain people who should never have received a dime.
Greece was not part of the Allied nations and the reparations issue was finally closed in 1990. Tsipras is desperately grasping at any excuse he can dredge up to avoid responsibility.
Pitiful! Why not extend it to every person in the world who is, or thinks they have financial problems? If you can't afford the luxuries of life, do without them. This is a great lesson for Greece and everyone who gets into credit card debt.
I agree. Let's start with everyone who has a higher debt than a Greek citizen, which includes you. What, you did not know? Shame on you to (like the Greeks that so irritate you) have not paid attention to the accruing debt owed by you, as a citizen.
Why not? Let the banks fail in 2008 and you get everything that is happening now, but happening then. I imagine there would be at least SOME recovery from a real collapse after 7 years, unlike what has happened now.
It’s almost as though we’re German.
Who cares? From time to time, the tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Keep your delusional propaganda to yourself, please. Socialism only “works” when someone else is footing the bill.
Also rates higher than every country on Earth
You're right, insofar as the blame for the economic collapse and current doldrums have been caused by both Democrats and Republicans. Government is too big, too intrusive and corrupt eight ways to Sunday. Across the board term limits would be an excellent start. Elimination of the current tax code, from top to bottom (including the income tax), and replacement with the FairTax would be a huge economic boost.
It's called accountability, and yes, people are accountable and responsible for the choices that they make in life.
Operating word being "they".
You as a person owe 140k dollars in US debt, where the average Greek only owes 35k. Note that before the Greek government went honest about said debt, it ballooned from 13k. You never signed for this debt, and neither did they. If the US government went honest about their debt and the unbelievable financial system that enables it, the world economy would implode, by the way...
People are accountable and responsible for their choices, that's true. Let's try a solution: give every greek a choice between renouncing their citizenship, getting the US citizenship, the value of what they worked for in life in US dollars, and a free move to the US, or accepting the austerity measures that "might" save their economy. Let's see what they "choose".