You as a person owe 140k dollars in US debt, where the average Greek only owes 35k.
Yes, but the economic output of an individual Greek is half what an American is, so the numbers arent as far apart as you think.
It's the socialist ideals that aren't working, as usual. It never does work. The comparisons to the Nordic countries aren't really fair; Swedes don't retire in their late 40s, they produce double the amount per capita, and they have a strong export market, all unlike Greece. In a nutshell, Swedes aren't lazy. Massive tax evasion in Greece has been ignored for years, despite it being something the Greeks agreed to reduce when they got their first bailout. But that wasn't all they agreed, there were many more terms they had to comply with, but they ignored them when the money arrived in the government's account. Why should the creditors trust the Greeks to carry out the reforms they already agreed to and failed to carry out in the past? Why should the rest of Europe pay for Greek laziness and ignorance?
Regarding debt restructuring, if Greece does get a debt cut, other countries like Spain, Italy and Portugal will want to follow suit. Denying them a cut also would be unfair, granting them a cut would be impossible for the creditors to afford, cascading bankruptcy would occur and recession would set in.
If Greece goes bankrupt and stays in the Euro, again the other heavily indebted nations will just say "well they got no repercussions, we'll follow suit", resulting in another EU recession.
The Euro was a bad idea from the start. One misbehaving state causes massive issues, and the value of a country's currency can't change to help their situation. If Greece had the Drachma, the value would plummet and it would be incredibly cheap to buy Greek produce and tourists would have cheap holidays. Money would pour into Greece and its economy would improve. That can't happen with the Euro in place.
According to your logic, Capitalism is responsible for all crimes committed in this country. You know ... given that it was the capitalist system that outsourced all the manufacturing jobs, causing mass unemployment and driving the jobless poverty-stricken people to a life of crime. Since you genuinely believe in this line of reasoning, you should personally arrest every CEO/Capitalist and hold them responsible for all the rapes and murders in this country. Don't worry I'll be right behind you to lend a hand.
We haven't practiced true capitalism for some time, so claims it has "failed' are baseless, as are claims it is "responsible" for the current situation.
People also forget that The Wealth of Nations was not Adam Smith's only work; there are three companion volumes on morals needed for capitalism to work. Given that an increasing percentage of the American people no longer even understand the concept of morals, it's hardly surprising things are breaking down all around us.
You do realise that it's entirely editorialising, right?
They're construing a correlation and simply claiming that it was immigration, and putting off all other explanations as desperate counter-arguments from the left.
Just like you are.
But they're not providing any argument for WHY their line of thought might be true, other than the old fallacy that correlation must mean causation.
...given that it was the capitalist system that outsourced all the manufacturing jobs, causing mass unemployment and driving the jobless poverty-stricken people to a life of crime.
Nope, that would be the socialist practices put into place in the last 70 years. You might want to try educating yourself on a topic before speaking on it.
Yes, but the economic output of an individual Greek is half what an American is, so the numbers arent as far apart as you think.
It's the socialist ideals that aren't working, as usual. It never does work. The comparisons to the Nordic countries aren't really fair; Swedes don't retire in their late 40s, they produce double the amount per capita, and they have a strong export market, all unlike Greece. In a nutshell, Swedes aren't lazy. Massive tax evasion in Greece has been ignored for years, despite it being something the Greeks agreed to reduce when they got their first bailout. But that wasn't all they agreed, there were many more terms they had to comply with, but they ignored them when the money arrived in the government's account. Why should the creditors trust the Greeks to carry out the reforms they already agreed to and failed to carry out in the past? Why should the rest of Europe pay for Greek laziness and ignorance?
Regarding debt restructuring, if Greece does get a debt cut, other countries like Spain, Italy and Portugal will want to follow suit. Denying them a cut also would be unfair, granting them a cut would be impossible for the creditors to afford, cascading bankruptcy would occur and recession would set in.
If Greece goes bankrupt and stays in the Euro, again the other heavily indebted nations will just say "well they got no repercussions, we'll follow suit", resulting in another EU recession.
The Euro was a bad idea from the start. One misbehaving state causes massive issues, and the value of a country's currency can't change to help their situation. If Greece had the Drachma, the value would plummet and it would be incredibly cheap to buy Greek produce and tourists would have cheap holidays. Money would pour into Greece and its economy would improve. That can't happen with the Euro in place.
The amount of debatable in this post is awesomely huge.
Why would the economic output of a Greek be lower than that of an American? Are they genetically inferior or something? Or maybe God said so? As the old man's example (see above) shows, the Greek are part of the reason of Germany's current enjoyable success.
The tax evasion in Greece is high indeed, but have you looked at the tax evasion rates in the rest of Europe, especially illegal tax evasion (the subject of tax evasion through self-tailored rules, regulations and laws is a huge subject in itself, but a complex one that has no place in that thread)? Suffice to say that on top of that, Reaganism has brought a terrible scourge to the world in reducing massively the tax on the rich and companies, at the cost of government revenues, and that includes Greece. It still remains to be demonstrated this had any kind of positive effect on the economy, while evidence to the contrary piles sky-high.
When it comes to the Euro being a bad idea because of multiple states.... Yes, you're right. North Dakota, Alabama, and that plagued-by-earthquakes-and-electrical-blackouts state, California, should each have their own currency. I look forward to owning New York City Dollars.
Nope, that would be the socialist practices put into place in the last 70 years. You might want to try educating yourself on a topic before speaking on it.
Actually, that would be the right-wing practices and flawed ideology that really took hold with Reagan in the early eighties, torpedoing socialist systems in Europe with a quasi-religious fervour and complex financial and political instruments. It also combines with an American "every man for himself" ideology, strongly inspired by Randian thinking.
Part of the issue here is that America, an hyper power with both economic, financial, and military force far above most other countries, has been imposing its culture to the rest of the world, with the idea that others "might want to educate themselves first", totally ignoring the fact that they themselves might be lacking a few pointers (to be really nice about it).
Also, I'm very curious what makes you think I'm not educated, instead of you maybe having a few elements in your obviously large cultural and economic training that need a bit of a refresh...
You do realise that it's entirely editorialising, right?
They're construing a correlation and simply claiming that it was immigration, and putting off all other explanations as desperate counter-arguments from the left.
Just like you are.
But they're not providing any argument for WHY their line of thought might be true, other than the old fallacy that correlation must mean causation.
Well, it is a group with an obvious and clear agenda. The persons having created it, the people funding it financially, the scientific credentials (or lack thereof), the speakers invited... that paints a clear picture about their reliability. This is not to say they never say anything worthy of being checked, but caution seems to be very much in order.
Also, what's with people calling others uneducated and childish today?
In the UK Labour have finally admitted it's a bad idea, we're importing violent people from abroad to satisfy the socialist, politically correct ideology that we should have a mixture of cultures. Only thing is, these foreign (predominantly Muslim) cultures are completely incompatible with Western ideals. When was the last time you saw a Muslim on a pro-Western (or anti-ISIS) march? If they're truly anti Muslim terrorist group, why are they so silent in denouncing them? They should be first in line disassociating themselves, but they aren't, why?
When was the last time you saw much of a pro-Western or anti-ISIS march period? I don't think ISIS are paying much attention to marches, so there's no real point in them. Have you been on an anti-white supremacist march recently?
The problem is not just money, is means to pay; currency is basically locked inside the country.
The difference is GREEKS DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT REFORMS.
They already got a debt reduction and huge loan package before.
Why loan more, cut more debt, when there is not one inkling of effort to make your country competitive.
Some people say their net balance is now positive... (sic); only using very creative accounting...
If they'd actually started reforms like they promised 5 years ago; the ECB and others would probably advance money no question.
They got money and did nothing; see the problem.
There is a massive credibility gap here.
The current government likes to say lot of crap, but in the end,
when in 5 years they need more money, he'll come running back with another sob story
pointing fingers (the middle one...) and looking for more cash.
You can bank on it.
I always find it funny when I hear creditor this, creditor that; well the creditor right now are the Euro countries and those countries have democratically elected governments whose electors are starting to be pretty pissed off. Why? Greece did no substantial reform.
So, you think those "evil creditors"/people of the EU, should just say, what the hell, its just another $500, I can spare that!
Wouldn't that money be better spent helping poor people in Syria, Africa, Asia, or whatever? What makes Greeks so special!
As for Germany being impoverished. I don't think so.
Its Geography, education, work ethic, culture, made it probable it would rise again.
Not to mention Geopolitics of the time and that Germany, unlike Greece, is consequential (then and now).
IT would have just taken 20 years instead of 8.
The only thing that could have made them truly empoverished for 40 years is if they'd dismanteled all of German industry as reparation for war losses (like some in the US wanted). Even then, I'd still would have bet on Germany to come out better than Greece.
One thing you also forgot. The reason the US invested in Germany... The Cold war. They wanted a strong Germany in the center of Europe in the face of the USSR. That kind of factors doesn't really exists anymore. The US didn't do all that giving from the bottom of their heart, it was in their best interest strategically to do it.
I don't find anything 'funny' in any of this but reading history will help. Look I agree with a lot of what you say, however, I think if you check what Germany was going through pre WWII thanks to not being given debt forgiveness nor aid after WWI you'd see the assumption Germany would have prospered even if crippled in debt after WWII is dubious, however industrious the German people are. The very reason for the Marshall Plan and indeed the birth if the EU was to prevent another period when a Germany with no where to turn financially started yet another war. That's not speculation on my part, that is historical fact you can look up.
Nothing? Except perhaps that some do sound uneducated and childish?
The problem being that those who sound so.... is a subject of debate.
In my own opinion, the ones who have been calling the others uneducated are the ones who probably would need a bit of research-doing, but it is my opinion, and hence not worth more than yours or theirs. We probably should abstain from using that kind of argument, it doesn't help us progress in our thoughts... whatever we think of the other guys' opinions. Whether or not they're detestable {right/left}-wingers, in the posters {left/right} opinion, calling them trolls/children/uneducated just makes us AI-users sound stupid and aggressive.
Note: would be nice to have some way to put interactive dropdown menus in posts, then I could just rewrite the sentence on the fly to fit a right or left-wing reader
The problem being that those who sound so.... is a subject of debate.
In my own opinion, the ones who have been calling the others uneducated are the ones who probably would need a bit of research-doing, but it is my opinion, and hence not worth more than yours or theirs. We probably should abstain from using that kind of argument, it doesn't help us progress in our thoughts... whatever we think of the other guys' opinions. Whether or not they're detestable {right/left}-wingers, in the posters {left/right} opinion, calling them trolls/children/uneducated just makes us AI-users sound stupid and aggressive.
Note: would be nice to have some way to put interactive dropdown menus in posts, then I could just rewrite the sentence on the fly to fit a right or left-wing reader
I'd aver that there's little 'progress' in thoughts on these boards. There are a bunch of entrenched positions, and people just seem to be finding different ways of saying the same thing over and over.
Getting back on topic, Greece has succumbed to the present reality of their situation and made the deal to accept more mountains of debt and all of the EU recommended reforms.
No more need for Apple to give away the store for free to the Greeks. Greek banks should reopen Wednesday according to reports.
Comments
Yes, but the economic output of an individual Greek is half what an American is, so the numbers arent as far apart as you think.
It's the socialist ideals that aren't working, as usual. It never does work. The comparisons to the Nordic countries aren't really fair; Swedes don't retire in their late 40s, they produce double the amount per capita, and they have a strong export market, all unlike Greece. In a nutshell, Swedes aren't lazy. Massive tax evasion in Greece has been ignored for years, despite it being something the Greeks agreed to reduce when they got their first bailout. But that wasn't all they agreed, there were many more terms they had to comply with, but they ignored them when the money arrived in the government's account. Why should the creditors trust the Greeks to carry out the reforms they already agreed to and failed to carry out in the past? Why should the rest of Europe pay for Greek laziness and ignorance?
Regarding debt restructuring, if Greece does get a debt cut, other countries like Spain, Italy and Portugal will want to follow suit. Denying them a cut also would be unfair, granting them a cut would be impossible for the creditors to afford, cascading bankruptcy would occur and recession would set in.
If Greece goes bankrupt and stays in the Euro, again the other heavily indebted nations will just say "well they got no repercussions, we'll follow suit", resulting in another EU recession.
The Euro was a bad idea from the start. One misbehaving state causes massive issues, and the value of a country's currency can't change to help their situation. If Greece had the Drachma, the value would plummet and it would be incredibly cheap to buy Greek produce and tourists would have cheap holidays. Money would pour into Greece and its economy would improve. That can't happen with the Euro in place.
"Multiculturalism" is a bad idea whether you think the politically incorrect admission of that is "hateful" or not.
We've had it up here (Canada) since forever, and as part of policy since the 70s.
We've been doing just fine by it.
And the Canadian economy is mixed, a combination of capitalism and "socialism."
We do well enough with it.
Social programs and socially-minded policy is essential for the collective good.
That is genuinely amazing. Did you actually just try and imply (through "wondering") that socialism is responsible for rape in Sweden?
Given that it’s the socialists’ immigration system that allowed for it, yes.
Given that that hasn’t ever been the case when you said so, I’m glad you accept my points as accurate.
We haven't practiced true capitalism for some time, so claims it has "failed' are baseless, as are claims it is "responsible" for the current situation.
People also forget that The Wealth of Nations was not Adam Smith's only work; there are three companion volumes on morals needed for capitalism to work. Given that an increasing percentage of the American people no longer even understand the concept of morals, it's hardly surprising things are breaking down all around us.
What was the reasoning behind the widespread inner-city riots in Canada last year(?)....
Addendum (it was in 2012): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Riots_and_civil_disorder_in_Canada
Wow. That site is...insidious.
You do realise that it's entirely editorialising, right?
They're construing a correlation and simply claiming that it was immigration, and putting off all other explanations as desperate counter-arguments from the left.
Just like you are.
But they're not providing any argument for WHY their line of thought might be true, other than the old fallacy that correlation must mean causation.
...given that it was the capitalist system that outsourced all the manufacturing jobs, causing mass unemployment and driving the jobless poverty-stricken people to a life of crime.
Nope, that would be the socialist practices put into place in the last 70 years. You might want to try educating yourself on a topic before speaking on it.
Yes, but the economic output of an individual Greek is half what an American is, so the numbers arent as far apart as you think.
Regarding debt restructuring, if Greece does get a debt cut, other countries like Spain, Italy and Portugal will want to follow suit. Denying them a cut also would be unfair, granting them a cut would be impossible for the creditors to afford, cascading bankruptcy would occur and recession would set in.
If Greece goes bankrupt and stays in the Euro, again the other heavily indebted nations will just say "well they got no repercussions, we'll follow suit", resulting in another EU recession.
The Euro was a bad idea from the start. One misbehaving state causes massive issues, and the value of a country's currency can't change to help their situation. If Greece had the Drachma, the value would plummet and it would be incredibly cheap to buy Greek produce and tourists would have cheap holidays. Money would pour into Greece and its economy would improve. That can't happen with the Euro in place.
The amount of debatable in this post is awesomely huge.
Why would the economic output of a Greek be lower than that of an American? Are they genetically inferior or something? Or maybe God said so? As the old man's example (see above) shows, the Greek are part of the reason of Germany's current enjoyable success.
The tax evasion in Greece is high indeed, but have you looked at the tax evasion rates in the rest of Europe, especially illegal tax evasion (the subject of tax evasion through self-tailored rules, regulations and laws is a huge subject in itself, but a complex one that has no place in that thread)? Suffice to say that on top of that, Reaganism has brought a terrible scourge to the world in reducing massively the tax on the rich and companies, at the cost of government revenues, and that includes Greece. It still remains to be demonstrated this had any kind of positive effect on the economy, while evidence to the contrary piles sky-high.
When it comes to the Euro being a bad idea because of multiple states.... Yes, you're right. North Dakota, Alabama, and that plagued-by-earthquakes-and-electrical-blackouts state, California, should each have their own currency. I look forward to owning New York City Dollars.
Nope, that would be the socialist practices put into place in the last 70 years. You might want to try educating yourself on a topic before speaking on it.
Actually, that would be the right-wing practices and flawed ideology that really took hold with Reagan in the early eighties, torpedoing socialist systems in Europe with a quasi-religious fervour and complex financial and political instruments. It also combines with an American "every man for himself" ideology, strongly inspired by Randian thinking.
Part of the issue here is that America, an hyper power with both economic, financial, and military force far above most other countries, has been imposing its culture to the rest of the world, with the idea that others "might want to educate themselves first", totally ignoring the fact that they themselves might be lacking a few pointers (to be really nice about it).
Also, I'm very curious what makes you think I'm not educated, instead of you maybe having a few elements in your obviously large cultural and economic training that need a bit of a refresh...
Wow. That site is...insidious.
You do realise that it's entirely editorialising, right?
They're construing a correlation and simply claiming that it was immigration, and putting off all other explanations as desperate counter-arguments from the left.
Just like you are.
But they're not providing any argument for WHY their line of thought might be true, other than the old fallacy that correlation must mean causation.
Well, it is a group with an obvious and clear agenda. The persons having created it, the people funding it financially, the scientific credentials (or lack thereof), the speakers invited... that paints a clear picture about their reliability. This is not to say they never say anything worthy of being checked, but caution seems to be very much in order.
Also, what's with people calling others uneducated and childish today?
In the UK Labour have finally admitted it's a bad idea, we're importing violent people from abroad to satisfy the socialist, politically correct ideology that we should have a mixture of cultures. Only thing is, these foreign (predominantly Muslim) cultures are completely incompatible with Western ideals. When was the last time you saw a Muslim on a pro-Western (or anti-ISIS) march? If they're truly anti Muslim terrorist group, why are they so silent in denouncing them? They should be first in line disassociating themselves, but they aren't, why?
When was the last time you saw much of a pro-Western or anti-ISIS march period? I don't think ISIS are paying much attention to marches, so there's no real point in them. Have you been on an anti-white supremacist march recently?
Also, despite that: http://countercurrentnews.com/2014/08/muslims-against-isis-bring-the-protests-fox-news-says-dont-exist/
I could barely recall this one.
It was about tuition fee increases in Quebec, "from $2,168 to $3,793 between 2012 and 2018."
Those figures are per year. Yes, PER YEAR.
Sometimes we forget just how low our tuition is for a first-class education.
^ Also, weren't they mainly just protests, with a handful of escalation incidents, all within Quebec? Hardly "widespread inner-city riots".
I'll wager most of us up here barely remember it, and not on account of being ill-informed.
I don't find anything 'funny' in any of this but reading history will help. Look I agree with a lot of what you say, however, I think if you check what Germany was going through pre WWII thanks to not being given debt forgiveness nor aid after WWI you'd see the assumption Germany would have prospered even if crippled in debt after WWII is dubious, however industrious the German people are. The very reason for the Marshall Plan and indeed the birth if the EU was to prevent another period when a Germany with no where to turn financially started yet another war. That's not speculation on my part, that is historical fact you can look up.
Nothing? Except perhaps that some do sound uneducated and childish?
Nothing? Except perhaps that some do sound uneducated and childish?
The problem being that those who sound so.... is a subject of debate.
In my own opinion, the ones who have been calling the others uneducated are the ones who probably would need a bit of research-doing, but it is my opinion, and hence not worth more than yours or theirs. We probably should abstain from using that kind of argument, it doesn't help us progress in our thoughts... whatever we think of the other guys' opinions. Whether or not they're detestable {right/left}-wingers, in the posters {left/right} opinion, calling them trolls/children/uneducated just makes us AI-users sound stupid and aggressive.
Note: would be nice to have some way to put interactive dropdown menus in posts, then I could just rewrite the sentence on the fly to fit a right or left-wing reader
I'd aver that there's little 'progress' in thoughts on these boards. There are a bunch of entrenched positions, and people just seem to be finding different ways of saying the same thing over and over.
No more need for Apple to give away the store for free to the Greeks. Greek banks should reopen Wednesday according to reports.