A logical move; yes. But from the moment I heard of what Apple did, I thought if also a class act!
If I were a Greek citizen, this lone act of compassion at a time of crisis, may be long remembered.
One of the few comments on this board that make sense.
Some perspective, which costs Apple as a company far less than the 3 month free trial of Apple Music but goes a long way into making Apple look good in the eyes of the public.
Here's a little bit more perspective.
Greece is country of 10-11 million inhabitants.
The iPhone/Mac/iPad is very much in the minority, not necessarily by choice but because of economic realities.
If we assume that the country has 2 million iCloud users (which I feel is an exaggerated figure btw), and that maybe half of them have opted for extended iCloud space (again exaggerated estimate), then this whole month of FREE iCloud storage for Greek citizens, will end up costing Apple about $1 million. Wow! Chump change for the size of the company but a huge marketing home run.
Remember, the topic here is iCloud storage for Greek citizens and not socialism vs capitalism.
Getting back on topic, Greece has succumbed to the present reality of their situation and made the deal to accept more mountains of debt and all of the EU recommended reforms.
No more need for Apple to give away the store for free to the Greeks. Greek banks should reopen Wednesday according to reports.
It will be interesting to see should this all work out for now, if Apple's offer is still maintained or simply cancelled as not required. Never the less IMHO a nice gesture in the first place, and I doubt it was done for marketing reasons.
Epic post, and completely on point. Love how people like White Falcon compare "true" capitalism (which they admit is not practiced anywhere), so basically some fantasy, vs. the evil socialism (which of course is "true" socialism for any failed country and when it fits their agenda). Then they use this to claim everyone suffering "deserved it", and shouldn't be helped in any way, even though that includes people who voted against whatever policies they claim led to this.
So childish, petty, transparent, and intellectually dishonest. It's like calling all real girls ugly cause "the one in my head is so much better".
And when the government promises something, you as a voter have to ask yourself whether the numbers add up or not.
Yes, just like American voters who all do their due diligence before casting their votes. I see it all the time here in the US, workers voting to reduce their own pensions in altruistic displays of sacrifice for the greater good. /s
Actually, that would be the right-wing practices and flawed ideology that really took hold with Reagan in the early eighties
Aww, projectionism.
Part of the issue here is that America, an hyper power with both economic, financial, and military force far above most other countries, has been imposing its culture to the rest of the world
No, we haven’t. Not by our choice.
Also, I'm very curious what makes you think I'm not educated
On this topic? Your general lack of comprehension thereof, really.
On this topic? Your general lack of comprehension thereof, really.
"Not by our choice" you seem singularly unaware of how the world works, or very unwilling to admit it. Obviously, a powerful country would NOT do anything to tamper with other countries economies or politics. Never would the US intervene in Nicaragua (too direct, really), blockade a neighbouring island (unbelievable interventionism), fund political opponents, or anything more devious. This is the kind of things only socialist countries like their famous nemesis, Sweden, would do. Did I get you right?
As to my "lack of comprehension".... yes, let's say that. I'm not capable of comprehending things, since I disagree with you.
Let's just say that, to me, you're the person lacking basic economics, history, and even basic reasoning, out of the two of us. Maar ik ben alleen een dwaas. Je ne parle que quelques langues. Insegnami l'economia, O Signore di numeri e lettere. I'm certain your obvious contempt for others' opinions is backed by your absolute knowledge and understanding of all things economical, therefore I beg you. Impart your knowledge upon me.
The problem is not just money, is means to pay; currency is basically locked inside the country.
The difference is GREEKS DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT REFORMS.
They already got a debt reduction and huge loan package before.
Why loan more, cut more debt, when there is not one inkling of effort to make your country competitive.
Very instructive reading this thread. While a good plurality of the posters here are far-left egalitarian death cult supporters, when another country is in trouble, they put on their old time conservative hat and talk trash.
I'm sure you crypto-leftists were cheering just as fervently when Rhodesia was under fire and later when South Africa ran red with the blood of massacred white families.
No mention about how years of leftist governance in Greece and the cooking of the books primarily benefitted one entity, Goldman Sachs.
The fact is, with Russia calling our bluffs, and more bedwetting democratic governance incoming (Hill-dawg, baby) the US could quickly end up in a similarly catastrophic situation....
Or is printing trillions of dollars worth of debt notes indefinitely sustainable?
Greece is in shambles because anti-Greek leftists have been running the country since the 70s, and they and the mainstream media have successfully got the average voter in a propaganda chokehold. They have refused to exploit massively available natural resources, stating that they didn't exist up until creditors demanded they be included as collateral, which means, suddenly they do exist.
I predict a violent return to a traditional society. Elimination of universal suffrage, execution of white collar criminals, confiscation of their assets and a big middle finger to Germany and the other profiteers, who borrowed at .75% and lent at 8-20% and had the audacity to call it a bailout.
I've lived in in a socialist country. It stinks.
A child is satisfied with a simple toy, yet achieves little. Remind me which country landed on the moon again?
I'd take universal health care over a couple of moon rocks any day of the week. But hey, you throw away your billions any way you want.
"Not by our choice" you seem singularly unaware of how the world works, or very unwilling to admit it.
Ah, irony.
[dripping sarcasm that completely and utterly ignores what I said]
K.
yes, let's say that. I'm not capable of comprehending things, since I disagree with you.
Nah, let’s not say that, as it’s not what I said. Your lack of comprehension is independent of any discussion.
Let's just say that, to me, you're the person lacking basic economics, history, and even basic reasoning, out of the two of us.
That would make sense, given that you lack those things. It would stand to reason that, to you, I appear to lack them, since you lack the ability to see what truth is.
Maar ik ben alleen een dwaas. Je ne parle que quelques langues. Insegnami l'economia, O Signore di numeri e lettere.
I realize, again, that you cannot possibly understand why being a polyglot has absolutely nothing to do with comprehending economics or even American history or modern and contemporary views of the actions undertaken therein (because your lack of comprehension of these things makes it impossible for you to determine the truth of these matters in the first place), but I’m going to go ahead and still tell you that being a polyglot has absolutely nothing to do with comprehending economics or American history or modern and contemporary views of the actions undertaken therein, if only to point out another example to others reading the thread of how the disconnect between your comprehension (or lack thereof) and reality manifests.
I’m certain your obvious contempt for others’ opinions...
My contempt is for lies only. I don’t much care about opinions as long as they’re backed by fact. And again, Americans didn’t and don’t want to impose their culture on others’. It wasn’t the choice of the average American, nor of a group of average Americans, nor of a plurality, nor a majority, nor a supermajority. It was the choice of a minority nigh insignificant save for their political clout.
Originally Posted by qvak
LOL, none.
NASA had no clue how to pass through the Van Allen belts then, and they have no clue how to pass through them now.
Excellent propaganda coup however.
HOLY CRAP, AN ACTUAL MOON LANDING CONSPIRACY THEORIST!
I thought your existence was just a conspiracy theory. " src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
HOLY CRAP, AN ACTUAL MOON LANDING CONSPIRACY THEORIST!
I thought your existence was just a conspiracy theory. " src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
Well, considering I'm an engineer working in nuclear I'd say my opinion would hold a bit more validity than your typical "illumanerty reptiian demon alien shapeshifter" conspiracy nut.
No, what's suspect is Nasa's latest Orion videos where they present the Van Allen belts as a massive technical challenge they are working feverishly to overcome...... and yet no problemo with mid-60s era 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate.
HOLY CRAP, AN ACTUAL MOON LANDING CONSPIRACY THEORIST!
I thought your existence was just a conspiracy theory.
Well, considering I'm an engineer working in nuclear I'd say my opinion would hold a bit more validity than your typical "illumanerty reptiian demon alien shapeshifter" conspiracy nut.
---> Sounds legit
No, what's suspect is Nasa's latest Orion videos where they present the Van Allen belts as a massive technical challenge they are working feverishly to overcome...... and yet no problemo with mid-60s era 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate.
---> Could it be related to budget cuts? I remember reading that the budget of NASA in the sixties was massively higher than it currently is. Maybe the no-problemo comes from not having to do things on a budget. I'll admit total illiteracy in that domain, though, but surely TS can enlighten you. He is, after all, the local expert-on-everything.
Nah, let’s not say that, as it’s not what I said. Your lack of comprehension is independent of any discussion.
That would make sense, given that you lack those things. It would stand to reason that, to you, I appear to lack them, since you lack the ability to see what truth is.
I realize, again, that you cannot possibly understand why being a polyglot has absolutely nothing to do with comprehending economics or even American history or modern and contemporary views of the actions undertaken therein (because your lack of comprehension of these things makes it impossible for you to determine the truth of these matters in the first place), but I’m going to go ahead and still tell you that being a polyglot has absolutely nothing to do with comprehending economics or American history or modern and contemporary views of the actions undertaken therein, if only to point out another example to others reading the thread of how the disconnect between your comprehension (or lack thereof) and reality manifests.
My contempt is for lies only. I don’t much care about opinions as long as they’re backed by fact. And again, Americans didn’t and don’t want to impose their culture on others’. It wasn’t the choice of the average American, nor of a group of average Americans, nor of a plurality, nor a majority, nor a supermajority. It was the choice of a minority nigh insignificant save for their political clout.
I wonder if you're trolling me, blissfully unaware of any point made, or just... drunk, maybe?
The point about being a polyglot is that I've lived in, exercised jobs in, and generally been exposed to the press and economies of several of these countries you profess to understand the inner workings of. Also, I actually haven't really said that YOU don't understand things. How could I know that? You might decide, for political reasons, to deny things, you might be a fool, you might be wise but a troll. There are many possibilities. Hell, I might even be wrong, for all I know. What I can say, however, is that out of us two, there is one of us that is being rather depreciative of others and apparently pretty content of himself, while not offering much in the way of information. And, in truth, I believe it's not me.
I actually agree with your very last point, however contrived it is to make said point while denying the exact same point to the Greeks. Our societies suffer fromthe choice of a minority nigh insignificant save for their political clout.
This is actually underlined by research from this scholar: http://michaeljaybarber.com/research/ and that very interesting study http://people.umass.edu/schaffne/Schaffner.Rhodes.MPSA.2013.pdf ;(though, of course, some believe the whole argument to be flawed due to the much smaller size of the sample of "rich" and "super rich" people in American society.... but if research can only be done in a world where the super rich are the majority, we're in trouble, aren't we?)
In any case, I'm fed up with arguing with you on this. If it so pleases you, consider to have "won the Internet argument" by abandon. You can have yourself a trophy right here: http://www.3dtrophyfactory.com
Some of the extreme sentiments expressed here are really shameful. And remarkably ignorant, borderline illiterate.
Yes, Greece messed up. Yes, Greece will probably be better off in the long run outside the Eurozone than in it. (Greece should never have been a part of the Euro to begin with). Yes, in the short run, they'll have to put up with a lot of economic pain regardless of whether they stay or leave. But Greece leaving the Euro will be as much of a problem for the stable countries, as it will be for Greece. It will shred the credibility of the European Union. That's the reason that this has dragged on for so long.
Lenders are not blameless. They lent money knowing there's default risk. Bankruptcy is an inherent part of capitalism (as someone once said, 'capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without sin'), and if you choose to be a lender, that's the risk you take.
However, a country can't declare bankruptcy unlike an individual or a company can. The only solution to this is debt restructuring, as has happened repeatedly in the past, for many countries around the world. For example, Germany could not have become the post-war economic power that it became if its debts had not been written down by creditors, and people (especially the U.S.) gave it a lot of aid under the Marshall Plan. Similarly for Brazil and Mexico in the 1980s, where debt had to be restructured. The list of counties that have done this is quite large, and I could go on with many examples.
Restructuring means any or all of three things: write down the face value, lengthen the maturity, and/or lower the interest rate. This will be combined with fairly harsh austerity measures (e.g., raising taxes, cutting pensions, cutting government spending). It will happen in some form or the other. It's inevitable. Period. But dragging it on the way it has been serves absolutely no purpose other than to create unnecessary uncertainty in the global economy, and impact stock markets around the world.
Let me put it this way: if Greece is kicked out of the Euro, as some of you are rooting for, it will take a toll on the stock and bond markets, i.e. our wealth, here.
The only thing mature adults should be rooting for is a fast resolution of the problem with a quick debt restructuring. Anything else is kabuki.
Great post. Just to add some perspective: Germany in fact did pay for 'reparations', better known as 'Wiedergutmachung', after WWII, which would now amount to somewhere between 250 billion and 300 billion Euros when corrected for inflation and exchange rates.
I'd take universal health care over a couple of moon rocks any day of the week. But hey, you throw away your billions any way you want.
Actually, you probably won't get one without the other, at least at some point. Sometimes, it takes a few decades to balance social progress and science.
An economy that is strong enough and a country that is proud enough to walk on the Moon seems like a place capable of handling universal health care, and a country with universal health care seems like the right place to be able to go to the Moon.
So many here have all the answers to the world's problems. If only you were in charge instead of the people in charge now, surely the whole world would be safe and secure! We sure could have done this a decade or two ago if only we knew it was so easy and could be done from the safety of our bedrooms in our underwear flailing away on a keyboard.
(I'm being generous. I don't wear underwear. I prefer to save the world from economic demise while nude.)
The problem is not just money, is means to pay; currency is basically locked inside the country.
The difference is GREEKS DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT REFORMS.
They already got a debt reduction and huge loan package before.
Why loan more, cut more debt, when there is not one inkling of effort to make your country competitive.
Very instructive reading this thread. While a good plurality of the posters here are far-left egalitarian death cult supporters, when another country is in trouble, they put on their old time conservative hat and talk trash.
I'm sure you degenerate crypto-leftists were cheering just as fervently when Rhodesia was under fire and later when South Africa ran red with the blood of massacred white families.
No mention about how years of leftist governance in Greece and the cooking of the books primarily benefitted one entity, Goldman Sachs.
The fact is, with Russia calling our bluffs, and more bedwetting democratic governance incoming (Hill-dawg, baby) the US could quickly end up in a similarly catastrophic situation....
Or is printing trillions of dollars worth of debt notes indefinitely sustainable?
Greece is in shambles because anti-Greek leftists have been running the country since the 70s, and they and the mainstream media have successfully got the average voter in a propaganda chokehold. They have refused to exploit massively available natural resources, stating that they didn't exist up until creditors demanded they be included as collateral, which means, suddenly they do exist.
I predict a violent return to a traditional society. Elimination of universal suffrage, execution of white collar criminals, confiscation of their assets and a big middle finger to Germany and the other profiteers, who borrowed at .75% and lent at 8-20% and had the audacity to call it a bailout.
And of course, the non Greeks will eat dust because that's how you live free usually; food is for chumps... (sic).
Considering they borrowed the money FRAUDULENTLY by cooking their fracking books to get the loans (and even enter the Euro), I wouldn't too smug about those Greeks ethical and moral standing. I'm tired of total utter garbage being said. BTW, I vote Liberal an entitled dickhead leftist is not part of the equation.
Nobody here has put forward one reason why Euro members (you know real people with god damn real jobs) should foot the massive bill for this; why no spend money on some other worthy cause like Syria or Vaccination programs. Greek seem that money is a birth right or something!
It's always some abstract "obviously evil" (sic) creditor this, creditor that; but in the end it people in Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Belgium, Netherland who pay the bills and yes, they do vote too...
If you cook your books and good a loan. They had 5 years for a ton of reforms, most non even monetary and sat on their tumb up their ass (the same one they did the finger to "evil" Germany with.
I don't find anything 'funny' in any of this but reading history will help. Look I agree with a lot of what you say, however, I think if you check what Germany was going through pre WWII thanks to not being given debt forgiveness nor aid after WWI you'd see the assumption Germany would have prospered even if crippled in debt after WWII is dubious, however industrious the German people are. The very reason for the Marshall Plan and indeed the birth if the EU was to prevent another period when a Germany with no where to turn financially started yet another war. That's not speculation on my part, that is historical fact you can look up.
To start another war you need money; Germany indeed recovered pretty fast even after having fallen in the craphole post WWI due to the reparation being demanded post WWI, despite a world wide depression I may add! Of course, the Rhin industrial heartland hadn't been hit during WWI which helped..
I said 20 years for German full recovery (It took about 8 years with the Marshall Plan) (that means back to pre-war strength by the late 1960s). Twenty years to recover from this kind of devastation is indeed quick. Germany had many advantages, especially post WWII, which made this recovery likely. The post WWII boom economy and geopolitics (once the immediate post WWII deep recession subsided) would have made that recovery even more likely. Greece doesn't the many advantages of Germany and certainly doesn't have the timing of Germany. The European economy is certainly no booming...
The main reason for the Marshall plan was the USSR quickly becoming a treat in 1946-1947, without that pressure I doubt there would have been such an extensive program. The Marshall plan was serving US interests firstly; that it helped Germans was incidental.
BTW, I'm pretty well versed in history ( I read a lot and watch lots of doc) and specifically studied German industry for all of the 1990-1991 period (we had some deep exchange programs with several Science & Tech institutes at that time).
Comments
One of the few comments on this board that make sense.
Some perspective, which costs Apple as a company far less than the 3 month free trial of Apple Music but goes a long way into making Apple look good in the eyes of the public.
Here's a little bit more perspective.
Greece is country of 10-11 million inhabitants.
The iPhone/Mac/iPad is very much in the minority, not necessarily by choice but because of economic realities.
If we assume that the country has 2 million iCloud users (which I feel is an exaggerated figure btw), and that maybe half of them have opted for extended iCloud space (again exaggerated estimate), then this whole month of FREE iCloud storage for Greek citizens, will end up costing Apple about $1 million. Wow! Chump change for the size of the company but a huge marketing home run.
Remember, the topic here is iCloud storage for Greek citizens and not socialism vs capitalism.
It will be interesting to see should this all work out for now, if Apple's offer is still maintained or simply cancelled as not required. Never the less IMHO a nice gesture in the first place, and I doubt it was done for marketing reasons.
And when the government promises something, you as a voter have to ask yourself whether the numbers add up or not.
Yes, just like American voters who all do their due diligence before casting their votes. I see it all the time here in the US, workers voting to reduce their own pensions in altruistic displays of sacrifice for the greater good. /s
Aww, projectionism.
No, we haven’t. Not by our choice.
Also, I'm very curious what makes you think I'm not educated
On this topic? Your general lack of comprehension thereof, really.
No, we haven’t. Not by our choice.
On this topic? Your general lack of comprehension thereof, really.
"Not by our choice" you seem singularly unaware of how the world works, or very unwilling to admit it. Obviously, a powerful country would NOT do anything to tamper with other countries economies or politics. Never would the US intervene in Nicaragua (too direct, really), blockade a neighbouring island (unbelievable interventionism), fund political opponents, or anything more devious. This is the kind of things only socialist countries like their famous nemesis, Sweden, would do. Did I get you right?
As to my "lack of comprehension".... yes, let's say that. I'm not capable of comprehending things, since I disagree with you.
Let's just say that, to me, you're the person lacking basic economics, history, and even basic reasoning, out of the two of us. Maar ik ben alleen een dwaas. Je ne parle que quelques langues. Insegnami l'economia, O Signore di numeri e lettere. I'm certain your obvious contempt for others' opinions is backed by your absolute knowledge and understanding of all things economical, therefore I beg you. Impart your knowledge upon me.
The problem is not just money, is means to pay; currency is basically locked inside the country.
The difference is GREEKS DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT REFORMS.
They already got a debt reduction and huge loan package before.
Why loan more, cut more debt, when there is not one inkling of effort to make your country competitive.
Very instructive reading this thread. While a good plurality of the posters here are far-left egalitarian death cult supporters, when another country is in trouble, they put on their old time conservative hat and talk trash.I'm sure you crypto-leftists were cheering just as fervently when Rhodesia was under fire and later when South Africa ran red with the blood of massacred white families.
No mention about how years of leftist governance in Greece and the cooking of the books primarily benefitted one entity, Goldman Sachs.
The fact is, with Russia calling our bluffs, and more bedwetting democratic governance incoming (Hill-dawg, baby) the US could quickly end up in a similarly catastrophic situation....
Or is printing trillions of dollars worth of debt notes indefinitely sustainable?
Greece is in shambles because anti-Greek leftists have been running the country since the 70s, and they and the mainstream media have successfully got the average voter in a propaganda chokehold. They have refused to exploit massively available natural resources, stating that they didn't exist up until creditors demanded they be included as collateral, which means, suddenly they do exist.
I predict a violent return to a traditional society. Elimination of universal suffrage, execution of white collar criminals, confiscation of their assets and a big middle finger to Germany and the other profiteers, who borrowed at .75% and lent at 8-20% and had the audacity to call it a bailout.
I've lived in in a socialist country. It stinks.
Remind me which country landed on the moon again?
LOL, none.NASA had no clue how to pass through the Van Allen belts then, and they have no clue how to pass through them now.
Excellent propaganda coup however.
"Not by our choice" you seem singularly unaware of how the world works, or very unwilling to admit it.
Ah, irony.
K.
yes, let's say that. I'm not capable of comprehending things, since I disagree with you.
Nah, let’s not say that, as it’s not what I said. Your lack of comprehension is independent of any discussion.
That would make sense, given that you lack those things. It would stand to reason that, to you, I appear to lack them, since you lack the ability to see what truth is.
I realize, again, that you cannot possibly understand why being a polyglot has absolutely nothing to do with comprehending economics or even American history or modern and contemporary views of the actions undertaken therein (because your lack of comprehension of these things makes it impossible for you to determine the truth of these matters in the first place), but I’m going to go ahead and still tell you that being a polyglot has absolutely nothing to do with comprehending economics or American history or modern and contemporary views of the actions undertaken therein, if only to point out another example to others reading the thread of how the disconnect between your comprehension (or lack thereof) and reality manifests.
My contempt is for lies only. I don’t much care about opinions as long as they’re backed by fact. And again, Americans didn’t and don’t want to impose their culture on others’. It wasn’t the choice of the average American, nor of a group of average Americans, nor of a plurality, nor a majority, nor a supermajority. It was the choice of a minority nigh insignificant save for their political clout.
NASA had no clue how to pass through the Van Allen belts then, and they have no clue how to pass through them now.
Excellent propaganda coup however.
HOLY CRAP, AN ACTUAL MOON LANDING CONSPIRACY THEORIST!
I thought your existence was just a conspiracy theory.
" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
I thought your existence was just a conspiracy theory.
" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
Well, considering I'm an engineer working in nuclear I'd say my opinion would hold a bit more validity than your typical "illumanerty reptiian demon alien shapeshifter" conspiracy nut.No, what's suspect is Nasa's latest Orion videos where they present the Van Allen belts as a massive technical challenge they are working feverishly to overcome...... and yet no problemo with mid-60s era 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate.
I thought your existence was just a conspiracy theory.
Well, considering I'm an engineer working in nuclear I'd say my opinion would hold a bit more validity than your typical "illumanerty reptiian demon alien shapeshifter" conspiracy nut.
---> Sounds legit
No, what's suspect is Nasa's latest Orion videos where they present the Van Allen belts as a massive technical challenge they are working feverishly to overcome...... and yet no problemo with mid-60s era 1/4 inch thick aluminum plate.
---> Could it be related to budget cuts? I remember reading that the budget of NASA in the sixties was massively higher than it currently is. Maybe the no-problemo comes from not having to do things on a budget. I'll admit total illiteracy in that domain, though, but surely TS can enlighten you. He is, after all, the local expert-on-everything.
Also.... why is "quote" not quoting?
Ah, irony.
K.
Nah, let’s not say that, as it’s not what I said. Your lack of comprehension is independent of any discussion.
That would make sense, given that you lack those things. It would stand to reason that, to you, I appear to lack them, since you lack the ability to see what truth is.
I realize, again, that you cannot possibly understand why being a polyglot has absolutely nothing to do with comprehending economics or even American history or modern and contemporary views of the actions undertaken therein (because your lack of comprehension of these things makes it impossible for you to determine the truth of these matters in the first place), but I’m going to go ahead and still tell you that being a polyglot has absolutely nothing to do with comprehending economics or American history or modern and contemporary views of the actions undertaken therein, if only to point out another example to others reading the thread of how the disconnect between your comprehension (or lack thereof) and reality manifests.
My contempt is for lies only. I don’t much care about opinions as long as they’re backed by fact. And again, Americans didn’t and don’t want to impose their culture on others’. It wasn’t the choice of the average American, nor of a group of average Americans, nor of a plurality, nor a majority, nor a supermajority. It was the choice of a minority nigh insignificant save for their political clout.
I wonder if you're trolling me, blissfully unaware of any point made, or just... drunk, maybe?
The point about being a polyglot is that I've lived in, exercised jobs in, and generally been exposed to the press and economies of several of these countries you profess to understand the inner workings of. Also, I actually haven't really said that YOU don't understand things. How could I know that? You might decide, for political reasons, to deny things, you might be a fool, you might be wise but a troll. There are many possibilities. Hell, I might even be wrong, for all I know. What I can say, however, is that out of us two, there is one of us that is being rather depreciative of others and apparently pretty content of himself, while not offering much in the way of information. And, in truth, I believe it's not me.
I actually agree with your very last point, however contrived it is to make said point while denying the exact same point to the Greeks. Our societies suffer from the choice of a minority nigh insignificant save for their political clout.
This is actually underlined by research from this scholar: http://michaeljaybarber.com/research/ and that very interesting study http://people.umass.edu/schaffne/Schaffner.Rhodes.MPSA.2013.pdf ;(though, of course, some believe the whole argument to be flawed due to the much smaller size of the sample of "rich" and "super rich" people in American society.... but if research can only be done in a world where the super rich are the majority, we're in trouble, aren't we?)
In any case, I'm fed up with arguing with you on this. If it so pleases you, consider to have "won the Internet argument" by abandon. You can have yourself a trophy right here: http://www.3dtrophyfactory.com
Some of the extreme sentiments expressed here are really shameful. And remarkably ignorant, borderline illiterate.
Yes, Greece messed up. Yes, Greece will probably be better off in the long run outside the Eurozone than in it. (Greece should never have been a part of the Euro to begin with). Yes, in the short run, they'll have to put up with a lot of economic pain regardless of whether they stay or leave. But Greece leaving the Euro will be as much of a problem for the stable countries, as it will be for Greece. It will shred the credibility of the European Union. That's the reason that this has dragged on for so long.
Lenders are not blameless. They lent money knowing there's default risk. Bankruptcy is an inherent part of capitalism (as someone once said, 'capitalism without bankruptcy is like religion without sin'), and if you choose to be a lender, that's the risk you take.
However, a country can't declare bankruptcy unlike an individual or a company can. The only solution to this is debt restructuring, as has happened repeatedly in the past, for many countries around the world. For example, Germany could not have become the post-war economic power that it became if its debts had not been written down by creditors, and people (especially the U.S.) gave it a lot of aid under the Marshall Plan. Similarly for Brazil and Mexico in the 1980s, where debt had to be restructured. The list of counties that have done this is quite large, and I could go on with many examples.
Restructuring means any or all of three things: write down the face value, lengthen the maturity, and/or lower the interest rate. This will be combined with fairly harsh austerity measures (e.g., raising taxes, cutting pensions, cutting government spending). It will happen in some form or the other. It's inevitable. Period. But dragging it on the way it has been serves absolutely no purpose other than to create unnecessary uncertainty in the global economy, and impact stock markets around the world.
Let me put it this way: if Greece is kicked out of the Euro, as some of you are rooting for, it will take a toll on the stock and bond markets, i.e. our wealth, here.
The only thing mature adults should be rooting for is a fast resolution of the problem with a quick debt restructuring. Anything else is kabuki.
Great post. Just to add some perspective: Germany in fact did pay for 'reparations', better known as 'Wiedergutmachung', after WWII, which would now amount to somewhere between 250 billion and 300 billion Euros when corrected for inflation and exchange rates.
I'd take universal health care over a couple of moon rocks any day of the week. But hey, you throw away your billions any way you want.
Actually, you probably won't get one without the other, at least at some point. Sometimes, it takes a few decades to balance social progress and science.
An economy that is strong enough and a country that is proud enough to walk on the Moon seems like a place capable of handling universal health care, and a country with universal health care seems like the right place to be able to go to the Moon.
(I'm being generous. I don't wear underwear. I prefer to save the world from economic demise while nude.)
The problem is not just money, is means to pay; currency is basically locked inside the country.
The difference is GREEKS DON'T WANT TO CHANGE. THEY DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT REFORMS.
They already got a debt reduction and huge loan package before.
Why loan more, cut more debt, when there is not one inkling of effort to make your country competitive.
Very instructive reading this thread. While a good plurality of the posters here are far-left egalitarian death cult supporters, when another country is in trouble, they put on their old time conservative hat and talk trash.
I'm sure you degenerate crypto-leftists were cheering just as fervently when Rhodesia was under fire and later when South Africa ran red with the blood of massacred white families.
No mention about how years of leftist governance in Greece and the cooking of the books primarily benefitted one entity, Goldman Sachs.
The fact is, with Russia calling our bluffs, and more bedwetting democratic governance incoming (Hill-dawg, baby) the US could quickly end up in a similarly catastrophic situation....
Or is printing trillions of dollars worth of debt notes indefinitely sustainable?
Greece is in shambles because anti-Greek leftists have been running the country since the 70s, and they and the mainstream media have successfully got the average voter in a propaganda chokehold. They have refused to exploit massively available natural resources, stating that they didn't exist up until creditors demanded they be included as collateral, which means, suddenly they do exist.
I predict a violent return to a traditional society. Elimination of universal suffrage, execution of white collar criminals, confiscation of their assets and a big middle finger to Germany and the other profiteers, who borrowed at .75% and lent at 8-20% and had the audacity to call it a bailout.
And of course, the non Greeks will eat dust because that's how you live free usually; food is for chumps... (sic).
Considering they borrowed the money FRAUDULENTLY by cooking their fracking books to get the loans (and even enter the Euro), I wouldn't too smug about those Greeks ethical and moral standing. I'm tired of total utter garbage being said. BTW, I vote Liberal an entitled dickhead leftist is not part of the equation.
Nobody here has put forward one reason why Euro members (you know real people with god damn real jobs) should foot the massive bill for this; why no spend money on some other worthy cause like Syria or Vaccination programs. Greek seem that money is a birth right or something!
It's always some abstract "obviously evil" (sic) creditor this, creditor that; but in the end it people in Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Belgium, Netherland who pay the bills and yes, they do vote too...
If you cook your books and good a loan. They had 5 years for a ton of reforms, most non even monetary and sat on their tumb up their ass (the same one they did the finger to "evil" Germany with.
I don't find anything 'funny' in any of this but reading history will help. Look I agree with a lot of what you say, however, I think if you check what Germany was going through pre WWII thanks to not being given debt forgiveness nor aid after WWI you'd see the assumption Germany would have prospered even if crippled in debt after WWII is dubious, however industrious the German people are. The very reason for the Marshall Plan and indeed the birth if the EU was to prevent another period when a Germany with no where to turn financially started yet another war. That's not speculation on my part, that is historical fact you can look up.
To start another war you need money; Germany indeed recovered pretty fast even after having fallen in the craphole post WWI due to the reparation being demanded post WWI, despite a world wide depression I may add! Of course, the Rhin industrial heartland hadn't been hit during WWI which helped..
I said 20 years for German full recovery (It took about 8 years with the Marshall Plan) (that means back to pre-war strength by the late 1960s). Twenty years to recover from this kind of devastation is indeed quick. Germany had many advantages, especially post WWII, which made this recovery likely. The post WWII boom economy and geopolitics (once the immediate post WWII deep recession subsided) would have made that recovery even more likely. Greece doesn't the many advantages of Germany and certainly doesn't have the timing of Germany. The European economy is certainly no booming...
The main reason for the Marshall plan was the USSR quickly becoming a treat in 1946-1947, without that pressure I doubt there would have been such an extensive program. The Marshall plan was serving US interests firstly; that it helped Germans was incidental.
BTW, I'm pretty well versed in history ( I read a lot and watch lots of doc) and specifically studied German industry for all of the 1990-1991 period (we had some deep exchange programs with several Science & Tech institutes at that time).