I hope the 15 incher gets the new Radeon mobility card. And moves to the low-power 970. At the same time...I would have thought the 17 incher would also get a bump or risk getting its sales pounded.
It's been almost 6 months since they were launched at Macworld anyhow. I think all three are due.
If Apple really wants the 'year of the laptop'...then they need to build on the stunning year debut and stick 970s in all three machines. I don't see why the towers should be the first to get them.
970 changes things. It gives Apple lotso options.
The sales rush for 970 laptops 'this soon' would be unprecedented.
The performance quandry for Apple needs to be addressed sooner or later. What better way than a typical Apple trend busting release..?
Afterall, what's else could be holding up the 15 incher? Ti-inventory? That Ati Mobility? Both? Sorting those initial 'manufacturing problems?' Or a stockpile of low-power 970s..?
Many might argue that the tower line's sales are the priority in terms of addressing sales figures.
No, the 970 will not hit the 15" until the 17" inch can get it too. Releasing a 970 powered 15" powerbook would probably *kill* the 17" sales. As has been stated many times before - the 17" have to be the top-dog, and will probably never have fewer features or lesser processor than the other two 'books.
O'Grady is claiming as further evidence that new 15-inch PowerBooks are right around the corner a sale at CompUSA.com of 667MHz models for just $1,499.
Of course that 667MHz model may be as much as a year old, and is being sold "as is" and not returnable. Meaning it was probably a floor model.
The CURRENT line is still at standard retail prices, which doesn't exactly scream that they're trying to clear inventory.
Yeah, I suppose the 15 inch could get the revamp while the 12 and 17 just get minor speed bumps(or maybe just the 17)
The thing is that the only way to bump the G4 now is to go to the same high-voltage XPC models in the towers, and those things are hot. The 7457 won't appear for months yet. Faced with the need to put a particularly hot chip in a laptop in order to make any progress at all, it seems to me that Apple has nothing to lose by dropping in a 970. I doubt the low-voltage version is hotter than the XPC7455 (you can't quote the power consumption from Mot's site, because those are for the lower-voltage MPC7455), and I'd be surprised if it isn't cheaper, too. And Apple could at least offer something that was worth all the trouble.
The only alternative I can see is for Apple to let their professional laptops languish during the "Year of the Laptop." However much it might be claimed - or even true - that Steve was just using that as a way to hype the models he had ready at MWSF, he has to have been aware that it would come back to haunt him if Apple didn't deliver on it. On the other hand, if he can get journalists writing "When Steve Jobs proclaimed 2003 the Year of the Laptop, he wasn't kidding," then he's scored a significant PR coup just in time to leave PC laptops back in the dust where they belong.
On the other hand, if he can get journalists writing "When Steve Jobs proclaimed 2003 the Year of the Laptop, he wasn't kidding," then he's scored a significant PR coup just in time to leave PC laptops back in the dust where they belong.
Lemon Bon Bon
(Nice to see Amorph applying his 'integer logic' to the 970 Powerbook debate...)
I think Amorph is right: Apple has painted themselves into a corner with the PowerBooks, if Moto can't ship a low-power 7455 at greater than 1GHz. They just cannot use the high-voltage variant that's in the towers; I have a dual-1.25 and the heat sink is absolutely HUGE. My guess is, we're stuck at 1GHz until the 7457 or the 970.
I still don't think it would be disastrous to 12- and 17-inch sales if the 15 went to a 970 first, assuming that chip was clocked at or close to the current G4. To us, yes, there is a clear advantage to the 970, but the majority of customers simply don't know enough about processors to understand the difference. Especially switchers, who are so confused about Celerons and Pentiums and Centrino -- by and large they have no idea what the difference is.
Have you ever tried to explain Altivec to someone to show them why a G4 is better than a G3?
OK, after having scrutinized the rumor mill for months & months (read: I, too, am dying for the 15" AlBook) here's my $0.02. Beating the horse bloody...
1. No way we'll see it before WWDC (June) or MWE (July).
- Apple likes to introduce new devices at conventions, so why should we think any different?
- They'll want to buy time so suckers/indifferents will buy leftover TiBooks.
2. No way it'll have the 970 in it.
- As been said, they'd be nuts to introduce their top chip in a midrange machine and even nutser (?) to charge more for a midrange machine than the 17" AlBook.
- Apple laptops have never got the top chip before or even simultaneously with a desktop model. True of the 68040, the PPC/G3, and the G4. Will be true for the 970.
- As been said, the 17" AlBook is barely out in Europe. Why would Apple trump it now?
OK, after having scrutinized the rumor mill for months & months (read: I, too, am dying for the 15" AlBook) here's my $0.02. Beating the horse bloody...
1. No way we'll see it before WWDC (June) or MWE (July).
You are probably right about this one.Quote:
- They'll want to buy time so suckers/indifferents will buy leftover TiBooks.
I don't think "buying time is very high on Apples schedual right now Quote:
2. No way it'll have the 970 in it.
- As been said, they'd be nuts to introduce their top chip in a midrange machine
The 15" is not a mid-range machine. It is top of the range, just has a smaller display than the top dog which is more of a desktop replacement 'book Quote:
and even nutser (?) to charge more for a midrange machine than the 17" AlBook.
Why would they charge more? I don't see why a 15" 970 powered powerbook can cost the same as before. in fact I can almost guarantee that it will keep the current price-point.Quote:
- Apple laptops have never got the top chip before or even simultaneously with a desktop model. True of the 68040, the PPC/G3, and the G4. Will be true for the 970.
- As been said, the 17" AlBook is barely out in Europe. Why would Apple trump it now?
If they had the 15" and 17" ready now, I'll bet they would have made it happen. Maybe not at the WWDC, but why not at MacWorld "whatever". It won't happen at the same time, and that is a combined 970 availability / production / developement / time since last update kinda question.
- As been said, they'd be nuts to introduce their top chip in a midrange machine and even nutser (?) to charge more for a midrange machine than the 17" AlBook.
- Apple laptops have never got the top chip before or even simultaneously with a desktop model. True of the 68040, the PPC/G3, and the G4. Will be true for the 970.
- As been said, the 17" AlBook is barely out in Europe. Why would Apple trump it now?
I disagree on several points. I think the 15" PB is the top of the line. The 17" is great but due to it's size is more of a niche product.
I believe the G3 came out first in a laptop or perhaps simultaneously with the desktop. There was a link earlier in this thread.
Your arguments would carry more weight if this market had more to do with style. As it is, Apple is up against the wall with regards to technology. They need to get faster hardware out ASAP. The iBook, eMac and iMac can wait a little while longer. The tower and at least one PB, preferably the 15 inch one, needs to be on the cutting edge of technology. The cutting edge now is the IBM 970.
I have argued earlier that a conservative approach would be to release the 970 only in the towers, get a few months experience with it in the field, then release it in a laptop. I haven't changed my mind on this but in my gut I really hope Apple has figured out how to bring out the 970 in a laptop this June. It would be a big boost for them. A 970 based 15 inch PB this summer would be astounding. The same PB delayed till next January would be far less exciting. That is the benefit of time to market.
I disagree on several points. I think the 15" PB is the top of the line. The 17" is great but due to it's size is more of a niche product.
Nevertheless, Apple has set up a hierarchy of 12"/15"/17", both pricewise and featurewise.
Quote:
Your arguments would carry more weight if this market had more to do with style. As it is, Apple is up against the wall with regards to technology. They need to get faster hardware out ASAP. The iBook, eMac and iMac can wait a little while longer. The tower and at least one PB, preferably the 15 inch one, needs to be on the cutting edge of technology. The cutting edge now is the IBM 970.
The iMac has tended to follow the PowerBook technologically (the iMac G4 is one exception, but that was a radical redesign), since the two have to confront the same issues, more or less. The original iMac was basically a Wallstreet (actually, MainStreet) motherboard stuffed under a CRT.
The eMac tends to follow the low-end iMac.
Quote:
A 970 based 15 inch PB this summer would be astounding. The same PB delayed till next January would be far less exciting. That is the benefit of time to market.
Every reason to put a 970 in the 15" is a reason to put it in the 17", and every issue that would make it difficult to put a 970 in the 15" (price, battery life, heat dissipation, etc.) is better addressed in the 17".
I'm also hoping that Apple will do with the 970 what they did with the G3 and roll it out in the portable line promptly (as long as they don't charge $6500 for the privilege!), but I remain skeptical. Unfortunately, I don't see many attractive options for Apple - I don't think they want to wait for the 7457.
Of course, everyone predicting the IBM 970 won't be in the next revision of the ~15" Powerbook is totally contradicting the venerable MacWishper's predictions.
Wait a minute, MacWispers isn't predicting, he has insider knowledge through emails with Taiwan suppliers, so his statements are to taken as fact.
Amendment: I do hope he's right, though. As that would most likely mean a simultaneous release with Powermac's
I can't see what the problem is. The Powerbooks were last updated half a year ago come late June/early July. And the Ti-Book some time late last year.
970 to 'go' makes perfect sense to me. Apple get to blitz their pro-line ahead of schedule: that can mean money, lots of money. Everytime Apple can deliver ahead of the curve they can get sales and at least temporary growth.
Any company that is selling almost half its line in laptops can't be doing too badly. (The laptops that good? Or the desktops that bad? Bit of both?) Either way, imagine the sales if Apple had the 970 in their laptop?
I'd certainly think long and hard about a 17 incher Powerbook with a dual 970!
I think there's alot going for the dual 970 debut in towers and pro-laptops (if the 'Year of the Laptop' has any substance to it whatsoever...)
Presumably the 970 will require Panther. Panther will not be available till Septemberish. That would argue that, even if the 970 is annouced in June, it will not be usable till sometime in September.
With only three months till then I doubt that Apple would release a G4 based PB if they intended to come out with a 970 based PB in September. This would argue that we are in a holding pattern till then.
The alternative would be for Apple to make an interemediate version of OS X ( 10.2.7?) which would run the 970 in 32 bit mode. Would this be worthwhile for just a three month head start? Perhaps OS X 10.2 support would be useful anyway. There might be some unforseen issues with 64 bit operation that make this attractive from an engineering standpoint as a backup position.
Maybe it makes sense financially as well. The new financial quarter starts in July. If Apple can sell the 970 starting in July that gives them one extra quarter to capitalize on the newness of the 970. If sales go up by some 100,000 machines for the quarter (wild ass guess) that is about 300M$ addition revenue. Not bad.
Presumably the 970 will require Panther. Panther will not be available till Septemberish. That would argue that, even if the 970 is annouced in June, it will not be usable till sometime in September.
Apple could probably, and easily, tweak Jagwyre to run on the 970 powermacs for a couple 'o months. That would give us the power we have longed for "some time" now, and the devs a few months to tweak and patch their software for the new os.
Sorry in advance for not being up on the Panther/970 thing, but it was my understanding that the 970 will support Panther's 64-bit architecture but with work with 32-bit systems like Jaguar. Am I babbling incoherently?
Quote:
Originally posted by NETROMac
Apple could probably, and easily, tweak Jagwyre to run on the 970 powermacs for a couple 'o months. That would give us the power we have longed for "some time" now, and the devs a few months to tweak and patch their software for the new os.
btw, thanks for the interesting comments back there (although I do agree with Amorph that, whatever you call the 17" AlBook, there's a 3-tired offering and the 15" is the second tier).
Sorry in advance for not being up on the Panther/970 thing, but it was my understanding that the 970 will support Panther's 64-bit architecture but with work with 32-bit systems like Jaguar. Am I babbling incoherently?
It will work, but it may take some sort of tweaking. The 970 motherboard will likely have new stuff that requires some "hacks" to the kernal and other areas of the os like drivers. This is not due to the 64bitness of the 970 but because of new features of the machine it self, much like when you see specific versions released "pre-officially" for say the new 17" al-book.
Comments
It's been almost 6 months since they were launched at Macworld anyhow. I think all three are due.
If Apple really wants the 'year of the laptop'...then they need to build on the stunning year debut and stick 970s in all three machines. I don't see why the towers should be the first to get them.
970 changes things. It gives Apple lotso options.
The sales rush for 970 laptops 'this soon' would be unprecedented.
The performance quandry for Apple needs to be addressed sooner or later. What better way than a typical Apple trend busting release..?
Afterall, what's else could be holding up the 15 incher? Ti-inventory? That Ati Mobility? Both? Sorting those initial 'manufacturing problems?' Or a stockpile of low-power 970s..?
Many might argue that the tower line's sales are the priority in terms of addressing sales figures.
Lemon Bon Bon.
Of course that 667MHz model may be as much as a year old, and is being sold "as is" and not returnable. Meaning it was probably a floor model.
The CURRENT line is still at standard retail prices, which doesn't exactly scream that they're trying to clear inventory.
Not sure how many 17" are in the channel, and it would be a pricey thing to do.
But then again, can Apple afford to wait say another 6 months or so before using the 970 that they have ready to go?
Originally posted by Wrong Robust
Yeah, I suppose the 15 inch could get the revamp while the 12 and 17 just get minor speed bumps(or maybe just the 17)
The thing is that the only way to bump the G4 now is to go to the same high-voltage XPC models in the towers, and those things are hot. The 7457 won't appear for months yet. Faced with the need to put a particularly hot chip in a laptop in order to make any progress at all, it seems to me that Apple has nothing to lose by dropping in a 970. I doubt the low-voltage version is hotter than the XPC7455 (you can't quote the power consumption from Mot's site, because those are for the lower-voltage MPC7455), and I'd be surprised if it isn't cheaper, too. And Apple could at least offer something that was worth all the trouble.
The only alternative I can see is for Apple to let their professional laptops languish during the "Year of the Laptop." However much it might be claimed - or even true - that Steve was just using that as a way to hype the models he had ready at MWSF, he has to have been aware that it would come back to haunt him if Apple didn't deliver on it. On the other hand, if he can get journalists writing "When Steve Jobs proclaimed 2003 the Year of the Laptop, he wasn't kidding," then he's scored a significant PR coup just in time to leave PC laptops back in the dust where they belong.
On the other hand, if he can get journalists writing "When Steve Jobs proclaimed 2003 the Year of the Laptop, he wasn't kidding," then he's scored a significant PR coup just in time to leave PC laptops back in the dust where they belong.
Lemon Bon Bon
(Nice to see Amorph applying his 'integer logic' to the 970 Powerbook debate...)
I still don't think it would be disastrous to 12- and 17-inch sales if the 15 went to a 970 first, assuming that chip was clocked at or close to the current G4. To us, yes, there is a clear advantage to the 970, but the majority of customers simply don't know enough about processors to understand the difference. Especially switchers, who are so confused about Celerons and Pentiums and Centrino -- by and large they have no idea what the difference is.
Have you ever tried to explain Altivec to someone to show them why a G4 is better than a G3?
1. No way we'll see it before WWDC (June) or MWE (July).
- Apple likes to introduce new devices at conventions, so why should we think any different?
- They'll want to buy time so suckers/indifferents will buy leftover TiBooks.
2. No way it'll have the 970 in it.
- As been said, they'd be nuts to introduce their top chip in a midrange machine and even nutser (?) to charge more for a midrange machine than the 17" AlBook.
- Apple laptops have never got the top chip before or even simultaneously with a desktop model. True of the 68040, the PPC/G3, and the G4. Will be true for the 970.
- As been said, the 17" AlBook is barely out in Europe. Why would Apple trump it now?
3. Bluetooth, yes. Airport Extreme, yes. Backlit keyboard, possibly (s'been rumored). ATI Mobility Raedon 9600 GPU, nope.
- As been said, Apple was not on ATI's list of launch partners for the new chip.
- They're just shipping a Mercedes. Why introduce a cheaper Ferrari?
Personally, I'd be happy with Bluetooth as the sole enhancement to save a precious USB port. Everything else, at THIS POINT, would be gravy.
-K
P.S. We'll know soon enough, eh? Surely you've read this: http://www.macrumors.com/pages/2003/...21115723.shtml
Originally posted by Kabeyun
OK, after having scrutinized the rumor mill for months & months (read: I, too, am dying for the 15" AlBook) here's my $0.02. Beating the horse bloody...
1. No way we'll see it before WWDC (June) or MWE (July).
You are probably right about this one.Quote:
- They'll want to buy time so suckers/indifferents will buy leftover TiBooks.
I don't think "buying time is very high on Apples schedual right now
2. No way it'll have the 970 in it.
- As been said, they'd be nuts to introduce their top chip in a midrange machine
The 15" is not a mid-range machine. It is top of the range, just has a smaller display than the top dog which is more of a desktop replacement 'book Quote:
and even nutser (?) to charge more for a midrange machine than the 17" AlBook.
Why would they charge more? I don't see why a 15" 970 powered powerbook can cost the same as before. in fact I can almost guarantee that it will keep the current price-point.Quote:
- Apple laptops have never got the top chip before or even simultaneously with a desktop model. True of the 68040, the PPC/G3, and the G4. Will be true for the 970.
- As been said, the 17" AlBook is barely out in Europe. Why would Apple trump it now?
If they had the 15" and 17" ready now, I'll bet they would have made it happen. Maybe not at the WWDC, but why not at MacWorld "whatever". It won't happen at the same time, and that is a combined 970 availability / production / developement / time since last update kinda question.
Originally posted by Kabeyun
2. No way it'll have the 970 in it.
- As been said, they'd be nuts to introduce their top chip in a midrange machine and even nutser (?) to charge more for a midrange machine than the 17" AlBook.
- Apple laptops have never got the top chip before or even simultaneously with a desktop model. True of the 68040, the PPC/G3, and the G4. Will be true for the 970.
- As been said, the 17" AlBook is barely out in Europe. Why would Apple trump it now?
I disagree on several points. I think the 15" PB is the top of the line. The 17" is great but due to it's size is more of a niche product.
I believe the G3 came out first in a laptop or perhaps simultaneously with the desktop. There was a link earlier in this thread.
Your arguments would carry more weight if this market had more to do with style. As it is, Apple is up against the wall with regards to technology. They need to get faster hardware out ASAP. The iBook, eMac and iMac can wait a little while longer. The tower and at least one PB, preferably the 15 inch one, needs to be on the cutting edge of technology. The cutting edge now is the IBM 970.
I have argued earlier that a conservative approach would be to release the 970 only in the towers, get a few months experience with it in the field, then release it in a laptop. I haven't changed my mind on this but in my gut I really hope Apple has figured out how to bring out the 970 in a laptop this June. It would be a big boost for them. A 970 based 15 inch PB this summer would be astounding. The same PB delayed till next January would be far less exciting. That is the benefit of time to market.
Originally posted by neutrino23
I disagree on several points. I think the 15" PB is the top of the line. The 17" is great but due to it's size is more of a niche product.
Nevertheless, Apple has set up a hierarchy of 12"/15"/17", both pricewise and featurewise.
Your arguments would carry more weight if this market had more to do with style. As it is, Apple is up against the wall with regards to technology. They need to get faster hardware out ASAP. The iBook, eMac and iMac can wait a little while longer. The tower and at least one PB, preferably the 15 inch one, needs to be on the cutting edge of technology. The cutting edge now is the IBM 970.
The iMac has tended to follow the PowerBook technologically (the iMac G4 is one exception, but that was a radical redesign), since the two have to confront the same issues, more or less. The original iMac was basically a Wallstreet (actually, MainStreet) motherboard stuffed under a CRT.
The eMac tends to follow the low-end iMac.
A 970 based 15 inch PB this summer would be astounding. The same PB delayed till next January would be far less exciting. That is the benefit of time to market.
Every reason to put a 970 in the 15" is a reason to put it in the 17", and every issue that would make it difficult to put a 970 in the 15" (price, battery life, heat dissipation, etc.) is better addressed in the 17".
I'm also hoping that Apple will do with the 970 what they did with the G3 and roll it out in the portable line promptly (as long as they don't charge $6500 for the privilege!), but I remain skeptical. Unfortunately, I don't see many attractive options for Apple - I don't think they want to wait for the 7457.
Wait a minute, MacWispers isn't predicting, he has insider knowledge through emails with Taiwan suppliers, so his statements are to taken as fact.
Amendment: I do hope he's right, though. As that would most likely mean a simultaneous release with Powermac's
Originally posted by rickag
MacWishpers
Was this intentional? If so, it's very funny.
970 to 'go' makes perfect sense to me. Apple get to blitz their pro-line ahead of schedule: that can mean money, lots of money. Everytime Apple can deliver ahead of the curve they can get sales and at least temporary growth.
Any company that is selling almost half its line in laptops can't be doing too badly. (The laptops that good? Or the desktops that bad? Bit of both?) Either way, imagine the sales if Apple had the 970 in their laptop?
I'd certainly think long and hard about a 17 incher Powerbook with a dual 970!
I think there's alot going for the dual 970 debut in towers and pro-laptops (if the 'Year of the Laptop' has any substance to it whatsoever...)
Lemon Bon Bon
Presumably the 970 will require Panther. Panther will not be available till Septemberish. That would argue that, even if the 970 is annouced in June, it will not be usable till sometime in September.
With only three months till then I doubt that Apple would release a G4 based PB if they intended to come out with a 970 based PB in September. This would argue that we are in a holding pattern till then.
The alternative would be for Apple to make an interemediate version of OS X ( 10.2.7?) which would run the 970 in 32 bit mode. Would this be worthwhile for just a three month head start? Perhaps OS X 10.2 support would be useful anyway. There might be some unforseen issues with 64 bit operation that make this attractive from an engineering standpoint as a backup position.
Maybe it makes sense financially as well. The new financial quarter starts in July. If Apple can sell the 970 starting in July that gives them one extra quarter to capitalize on the newness of the 970. If sales go up by some 100,000 machines for the quarter (wild ass guess) that is about 300M$ addition revenue. Not bad.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Was this intentional? If so, it's very funny.
guilty as charged
Originally posted by neutrino23
Presumably the 970 will require Panther. Panther will not be available till Septemberish. That would argue that, even if the 970 is annouced in June, it will not be usable till sometime in September.
Apple could probably, and easily, tweak Jagwyre to run on the 970 powermacs for a couple 'o months. That would give us the power we have longed for "some time" now, and the devs a few months to tweak and patch their software for the new os.
Originally posted by NETROMac
Apple could probably, and easily, tweak Jagwyre to run on the 970 powermacs for a couple 'o months. That would give us the power we have longed for "some time" now, and the devs a few months to tweak and patch their software for the new os.
btw, thanks for the interesting comments back there (although I do agree with Amorph that, whatever you call the 17" AlBook, there's a 3-tired offering and the 15" is the second tier).
-K
Originally posted by Kabeyun
Sorry in advance for not being up on the Panther/970 thing, but it was my understanding that the 970 will support Panther's 64-bit architecture but with work with 32-bit systems like Jaguar. Am I babbling incoherently?
It will work, but it may take some sort of tweaking. The 970 motherboard will likely have new stuff that requires some "hacks" to the kernal and other areas of the os like drivers. This is not due to the 64bitness of the 970 but because of new features of the machine it self, much like when you see specific versions released "pre-officially" for say the new 17" al-book.