Drudge's screwing around with the clark quotes goes against some of the most basic journalistic ethics to the point that is basically becomes fabrication.
Drudge's screwing around with the clark quotes goes against some of the most basic journalistic ethics to the point that is basically becomes fabrication.
I don't deny this in any way. My point was that ethical violations such as these are occurring daily and against members of all political parties. However there is no such outrage about the problem as a whole, only as it pertains to Dean in this instance.
I don't deny this in any way. My point was that ethical violations such as these are occurring daily and against members of all political parties. However there is no such outrage about the problem as a whole, only as it pertains to Dean in this instance.
I think the dean bit on the front page and audio clip are funny. How could that audio clip not be?
However, the clark incident is a different story, especially since so many other news outlets uncritically regurgitated what drudge basically fabricated.
If Dean were to present himself more reasonably, his coverage would be more reasonable. He can't get out there and barnstorm angrily, wave his fist in the air red-faced and then expect to not look like a fool in the morning papers.
Drudge is dirt, but the "Angry Dean" meme has one source: Howard Dean.
for those who think dean "lost it" should remember that when we ran nice, polite, decent, candidates against the ruthless republicans they were repeatedly attacked even as they vowed to run a campaign "on the issues" i still remember the 88 campaign when dukakis refused to fight back and sling mud. no matter what you think of carter, mondale, dukakis, and gore, and their politics these were 4 decent men who tried to run a clean campaign and were shelled by the republicans
remember the magazine cover where they darkened dukakis's skin to make him look more foreign? dirty tricks like that are how they win elections. in 2000 i heard gore announce that he would campaign "on the issues" and he wouldn't sling mud. i told people that he was done for then, you can't run a clean campaign against them.
what we needed was a "pit bull" candidate. one who would excite the base and would fight back when attacked. we have that in dean. and win or loose, i will back him. dean is the only one thats not afraid to stand up to george bush.
what we needed was a "pit bull" candidate. one who would excite the base and would fight back when attacked. we have that in dean. and win or loose, i will back him. dean is the only one thats not afraid to stand up to george bush.
So are you supporting Dean or just supporting anyone who can beat Bush?
So are you supporting Dean or just supporting anyone who can beat Bush?
do you think kerry can beat bush? i don't. dean has excited the base and brought new people in. i had never given to a campaign before but i have supported dean.
no matter what you think of carter, mondale, dukakis, and gore, and their politics these were 4 decent men who tried to run a clean campaign and were shelled by the republicans
Al Gore didn't lose because he ran a "clean" campaign. He lost because he ran the worst campaign in modern memory, even worse than the Bush campaign of 1992. He didn't utilize the advantages he had with the economy, he did't pull Clinton out of the White House to rally the black vote until it was too late, he kept changing tone and message. He ran a shoddy campaign, and lost narrowly, despite having every advantage.
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what we needed was a "pit bull" candidate. one who would excite the base and would fight back when attacked. we have that in dean. and win or loose, i will back him. dean is the only one thats not afraid to stand up to george bush.
You run a pit bull, and all you'll get is the Democratic base. Independents don't want a pit bull. Bush'll swamp Dean. Independents want a president, not a foaming-at-the-mouth rabble rouser.
do you think kerry can beat bush? i don't. dean has exicted the base and brought new people in. i had never given to a campaign before but i have supported dean.
What you Dean supporters forget is that yes, while he was trying to fire up his biggest supporters, his speech was also on all the TV channels, and for many voters was the first time that they've seen Dean give a speech. People don't want to elect a President that's liable to fly off the handle at a moment's notice. People don't want to elect a President that they think is a nut.
Presidential elections are decided now more on how a person acts rather than their message. Look at the last election, all people could focus on was Al Gore being a stiff, Al Gore's facial expressions and how he acted in the debate rather than what he said. Unless Dean tones down his act people are simply going to be turned off to what he says.
hey im not here to change your minds. i support dean and you don't have to. if you think john kerry is the best man to go up against bush and if you think he will crush bush in november then "god love ya"
You run a pit bull, and all you'll get is the Democratic base. Independents don't want a pit bull. Bush'll swamp Dean. Independents want a president, not a foaming-at-the-mouth rabble rouser.
Kirk
Bravo!! This is a point I have made often! I find you to be right on the money here!
I would extend this even further. Many democrats do not even care for a foaming-at-the-mouth rabble rouser. Iowa anyone?
Mmmm, toast is yummy - especially with melted cheese on top! Kerry toast with Howie Dean Sausage
A little while ago I was walking past the TV and the show "Good Day LIVE" was on. They were talking about The Great Dean Wig-Out and one of the two women on the show summed up her feelings like this:
"He scared me."
Extrapolate from there.
Really sucks when people are taking potshots at your guy don't it?
it's still so early......too early to knock someone out, i think new hampshire will give us a new recipe.
of course having said all that, if dean doesn't get these images of him of television, i.e. quit doing them at events. he will be toast.
i hear you
but its that passion that got him his support in the first place. i think theres a diffrence between what dean supporters see and what the non-supporters see. when i saw that video i knew it was clearly meant for his supporters to pump them up after coming in 3rd. but others watching it in the media (where was this so-called liberal media? lol) saw a foaming-at-the-mouth candidate.
i don't want dean "handled" or toned down.
if its dean-bush and the american people re-elect bush then they deserve what they get and we should hear no complaints from those that vote for him over the next 4 years. all you have to do is speak with people outside of the usa to see how bush has destroyed the relations we had with other countries, if this is fine with the american people then by all means re-elect george bush. you know that if clinton was in office now with this economy and over 500 dead in iraq they would be all over him...
but its that passion that got him his support in the first place.
Yes, but that support is not as important as gaining the support of those just now engaging the process. And those tuning in now ?_ie, the important Independent and nominally Democratic voters ? don't like what they see in Dean. Nominate Dean and you'll send all the Reagan Democrats that Clinton won back rushing back towards the Republican Party. You'll break the vast majority of independents for Bush. You'll give him a landslide. Look how he governs now ?_you really want to see what he's like when he has a mandate?
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i think theres a diffrence between what dean supporters see and what the non-supporters see. when i saw that video i knew it was clearly meant for his supporters to pump them up after coming in 3rd. but others watching it in the media (where was this so-called liberal media? lol) saw a foaming-at-the-mouth candidate.
Because he was foaming at the mouth. And that's what seems to energize his polarized base. But it's not good politics. I am a former Dean supporter, I backed him right on through to last November, when I finally realized he wasn't going to grow up and act the way a frontrunning presidential candidate shold.
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i don't want dean "handled" or toned down.
Then Dean must be defeated. Left as is, he would be a historic disaster for the Democrats. You really don't understand the POV of people who aren't like you, do you?
Most Americans don't hate Bush. Even those who disagree with him by and large think he's an amiable fellow. And the independents who disagree with him don't hate him, and don't react well to hate-based politics.
If Dean is the nominee, and he keeps this crap up, he's going hate George Bush right into a second term of the current Administratin.
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if its dean-bush and the american people re-elect bush then they deserve what they get and we should hear no complaints from those that vote for him over the next 4 years.
If it is Dean-Bush and the American people re-elect Bush, then it will be in great part due to Dean's hateful, abrasive, petulent tone. You can't hear his message through all the white noise. A candidate who literally drowns himself out is no good for anybody.
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all you have to do is speak with people outside of the usa to see how bush has destroyed the relations we had with other countries, if this is fine with the american people then by all means re-elect george bush.
When it comes to American politics, no one cares what foreigners think about us. We're not going to vote for Dean in America just because the Europeans would like to see Bush gone. What sort of rationale is that?
Right now, to the American public, all they can hear from Dean is "I HATE BUSH I HATE BUSH I HATE BUSH" because of his style, his rage, his rhetoric. I know, and you know, he has a message somewhere in there, but the American people can hear it. And that's not their fault. It's Dean's.
Any Democrat who cares about beating George Bush has GOT to cast a ballot against Dean. He'll doom us all.
I caught a glimpse of the Dean speech, as well. It did seem very WWF-ish, as others have mentioned already. I thought it was just my quirky sense of humor that conjured the idea, but I see I am not alone.
I do agree with Northgate's point about the Drudge issue, however. It's not a classy thing and is a low blow, no matter who is the target of such tactics.
Comments
Originally posted by rageous
How naive are you? This is what all news is now.
Drudge's screwing around with the clark quotes goes against some of the most basic journalistic ethics to the point that is basically becomes fabrication.
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
the Daily Show is gonna be so good tonight.
No kidding.
That WWF act is great, especially with the monkey yell.
Originally posted by giant
Drudge's screwing around with the clark quotes goes against some of the most basic journalistic ethics to the point that is basically becomes fabrication.
I don't deny this in any way. My point was that ethical violations such as these are occurring daily and against members of all political parties. However there is no such outrage about the problem as a whole, only as it pertains to Dean in this instance.
Originally posted by rageous
I don't deny this in any way. My point was that ethical violations such as these are occurring daily and against members of all political parties. However there is no such outrage about the problem as a whole, only as it pertains to Dean in this instance.
I think the dean bit on the front page and audio clip are funny. How could that audio clip not be?
However, the clark incident is a different story, especially since so many other news outlets uncritically regurgitated what drudge basically fabricated.
Drudge is dirt, but the "Angry Dean" meme has one source: Howard Dean.
Kirk
remember the magazine cover where they darkened dukakis's skin to make him look more foreign? dirty tricks like that are how they win elections. in 2000 i heard gore announce that he would campaign "on the issues" and he wouldn't sling mud. i told people that he was done for then, you can't run a clean campaign against them.
what we needed was a "pit bull" candidate. one who would excite the base and would fight back when attacked. we have that in dean. and win or loose, i will back him. dean is the only one thats not afraid to stand up to george bush.
Originally posted by futuremac
what we needed was a "pit bull" candidate. one who would excite the base and would fight back when attacked. we have that in dean. and win or loose, i will back him. dean is the only one thats not afraid to stand up to george bush.
So are you supporting Dean or just supporting anyone who can beat Bush?
Originally posted by rageous
So are you supporting Dean or just supporting anyone who can beat Bush?
do you think kerry can beat bush? i don't. dean has excited the base and brought new people in. i had never given to a campaign before but i have supported dean.
heres an example:
http://www.websoapbox.com/media/dean...t-82603-NY.ram
Originally posted by futuremac
no matter what you think of carter, mondale, dukakis, and gore, and their politics these were 4 decent men who tried to run a clean campaign and were shelled by the republicans
Al Gore didn't lose because he ran a "clean" campaign. He lost because he ran the worst campaign in modern memory, even worse than the Bush campaign of 1992. He didn't utilize the advantages he had with the economy, he did't pull Clinton out of the White House to rally the black vote until it was too late, he kept changing tone and message. He ran a shoddy campaign, and lost narrowly, despite having every advantage.
what we needed was a "pit bull" candidate. one who would excite the base and would fight back when attacked. we have that in dean. and win or loose, i will back him. dean is the only one thats not afraid to stand up to george bush.
You run a pit bull, and all you'll get is the Democratic base. Independents don't want a pit bull. Bush'll swamp Dean. Independents want a president, not a foaming-at-the-mouth rabble rouser.
Kirk
Originally posted by futuremac
do you think kerry can beat bush? i don't. dean has exicted the base and brought new people in. i had never given to a campaign before but i have supported dean.
heres an example:
http://www.websoapbox.com/media/dean...t-82603-NY.ram
That's not answering my question.
I was just asking, for my own consumption, wether you support Dean or the fall of Bush?
Originally posted by futuremac
do you think kerry can beat bush?
I do. I think Kerry would be much better against Bush than Dean. And beating Bush is all I care about.
i don't. dean has exicted the base and brought new people in.
[/b]
You mean the base that voted for Kerry and Edwards? The new people who didn't show up at the caucuses? If that's what Dean's bringing, he can keep it.
Kirk
Presidential elections are decided now more on how a person acts rather than their message. Look at the last election, all people could focus on was Al Gore being a stiff, Al Gore's facial expressions and how he acted in the debate rather than what he said. Unless Dean tones down his act people are simply going to be turned off to what he says.
of course having said all that, if dean doesn't get these images of him of television, i.e. quit doing them at events. he will be toast.
Originally posted by Kirkland
You run a pit bull, and all you'll get is the Democratic base. Independents don't want a pit bull. Bush'll swamp Dean. Independents want a president, not a foaming-at-the-mouth rabble rouser.
Kirk
Bravo!! This is a point I have made often! I find you to be right on the money here!
I would extend this even further. Many democrats do not even care for a foaming-at-the-mouth rabble rouser. Iowa anyone?
Fellows
A little while ago I was walking past the TV and the show "Good Day LIVE" was on. They were talking about The Great Dean Wig-Out and one of the two women on the show summed up her feelings like this:
"He scared me."
Extrapolate from there.
Really sucks when people are taking potshots at your guy don't it?
Originally posted by superkarate monkeydeathcar
it's still so early......too early to knock someone out, i think new hampshire will give us a new recipe.
of course having said all that, if dean doesn't get these images of him of television, i.e. quit doing them at events. he will be toast.
i hear you
but its that passion that got him his support in the first place. i think theres a diffrence between what dean supporters see and what the non-supporters see. when i saw that video i knew it was clearly meant for his supporters to pump them up after coming in 3rd. but others watching it in the media (where was this so-called liberal media? lol) saw a foaming-at-the-mouth candidate.
i don't want dean "handled" or toned down.
if its dean-bush and the american people re-elect bush then they deserve what they get and we should hear no complaints from those that vote for him over the next 4 years. all you have to do is speak with people outside of the usa to see how bush has destroyed the relations we had with other countries, if this is fine with the american people then by all means re-elect george bush. you know that if clinton was in office now with this economy and over 500 dead in iraq they would be all over him...
Originally posted by rageous
So are you supporting Dean or just supporting anyone who can beat Bush?
I think he said that he would support a dog . . . . a Pit bull at that
well I for one support a competent and composed man that I know can beat Bush . . . Clark
Originally posted by futuremac
but its that passion that got him his support in the first place.
Yes, but that support is not as important as gaining the support of those just now engaging the process. And those tuning in now ?_ie, the important Independent and nominally Democratic voters ? don't like what they see in Dean. Nominate Dean and you'll send all the Reagan Democrats that Clinton won back rushing back towards the Republican Party. You'll break the vast majority of independents for Bush. You'll give him a landslide. Look how he governs now ?_you really want to see what he's like when he has a mandate?
i think theres a diffrence between what dean supporters see and what the non-supporters see. when i saw that video i knew it was clearly meant for his supporters to pump them up after coming in 3rd. but others watching it in the media (where was this so-called liberal media? lol) saw a foaming-at-the-mouth candidate.
Because he was foaming at the mouth. And that's what seems to energize his polarized base. But it's not good politics. I am a former Dean supporter, I backed him right on through to last November, when I finally realized he wasn't going to grow up and act the way a frontrunning presidential candidate shold.
i don't want dean "handled" or toned down.
Then Dean must be defeated. Left as is, he would be a historic disaster for the Democrats. You really don't understand the POV of people who aren't like you, do you?
Most Americans don't hate Bush. Even those who disagree with him by and large think he's an amiable fellow. And the independents who disagree with him don't hate him, and don't react well to hate-based politics.
If Dean is the nominee, and he keeps this crap up, he's going hate George Bush right into a second term of the current Administratin.
if its dean-bush and the american people re-elect bush then they deserve what they get and we should hear no complaints from those that vote for him over the next 4 years.
If it is Dean-Bush and the American people re-elect Bush, then it will be in great part due to Dean's hateful, abrasive, petulent tone. You can't hear his message through all the white noise. A candidate who literally drowns himself out is no good for anybody.
all you have to do is speak with people outside of the usa to see how bush has destroyed the relations we had with other countries, if this is fine with the american people then by all means re-elect george bush.
When it comes to American politics, no one cares what foreigners think about us. We're not going to vote for Dean in America just because the Europeans would like to see Bush gone. What sort of rationale is that?
Right now, to the American public, all they can hear from Dean is "I HATE BUSH I HATE BUSH I HATE BUSH" because of his style, his rage, his rhetoric. I know, and you know, he has a message somewhere in there, but the American people can hear it. And that's not their fault. It's Dean's.
Any Democrat who cares about beating George Bush has GOT to cast a ballot against Dean. He'll doom us all.
Kirk
I do agree with Northgate's point about the Drudge issue, however. It's not a classy thing and is a low blow, no matter who is the target of such tactics.