WayTools_support is a pseudonym, but not quite like the others because regardless of which particular person from WT is posting, you still know it is coming from WT. Which makes it less anonymous that the others. However, as in the case of the "opinion" issue, I've pointed out the problem with this being an important matter.
There you go again Kahuna, mixing and matching definition of words. Don't try to redefine words to your convenience.
Well, that would be up to the people he unblocked. At my recommendation, btw.
Why do you guys engage in such childish behavior? If you want to block what you don't want to hear, why are you here? Why don't you just stay on WT forums where Waytools does that for you? It seems like you guys want to shadow ban people, and whining when you can't.
Dbk - part of what shapes our observations is also the non-public communications from these folks.
Your sense of their motivations might be different too, when integrating those impressions into the overall picture.
In any case, we don’t expect any change in behavior from the pattern. We just try to understand it, and deal with it.
That wouldn't surprise me, but I can only deal with what I see. And no one else can see those things so probably best not to publicly make those claims, even if they are, based on private communication, absolutely true.
WayTools_support is a pseudonym, but not quite like the others because regardless of which particular person from WT is posting, you still know it is coming from WT. Which makes it less anonymous that the others. However, as in the case of the "opinion" issue, I've pointed out the problem with this being an important matter.
There you go again Kahuna, mixing and matching definition of words. Don't try to redefine words to your convenience.
Well, that would be up to the people he unblocked. At my recommendation, btw.
Why do you guys engage in such childish behavior? If you want to block what you don't want to hear, why are you here? Why don't you just stay on WT forums where Waytools does that for you? It seems like you guys want to shadow ban people, and whining when you can't.
That's weird. I didn't change any definition - I pointed that it was a pseudonym didn't I? I just also pointed out that there is a notable difference between one that, at the very least, you know it came from someone in the company as opposed to one which you know nothing about at all. And I pointed out that it shouldn't be an big deal either way.
Care to show that I'm wrong? You merely have to show that there is no difference at all (hard to do since I pointed out a very obvious difference). Or you could say that it is different but the difference doesn't matter. I don't think you can make a good argument with that, but you can try.
The part about blocking is interesting on multiple levels. First, I have not blocked anyone here. Never have. Never blocked anyone on the WT forums either. But I've been blocked many times. As for those that do block you or some others, maybe they are hear to discuss things rationally and don't want their time wasted with people who rant and make things up. In any case, I've never seen you criticize anyone on your side as being childish when they block people so I'm pretty sure you don't really think it is childish at all.
A rather sizable number of accusations against WT are also opinion. I've pointed out that problem from them AND by WT. You only have applied this to one side.
How about multiple promised deliveries over a four year period, is that opinion or fact? How about projecting a delivery when one's knowledge of one's own track record shows one's ability to make such projections for a given project to be nonexistent? Did that happen repeatedly or not?
I have no trouble believing in the virtues of the current design or that many people have failed to grasp the value of the design package the company is sticking with. Fact is, there is a perverse power source for all the drama in the fact that the design to all appearances seems to warrant the praise and hype. Were that not the case people would just move on. That may be part of the equation that has resulted in so much exposure for the company's bad practices. A producer of generic foldable keyboards would likely just have had most of the orders cancelled and faded away after the initial fiasco.
We’ll let Juli’s words, and ours, speak for themselves.
okay, here's Juli's official reply to a question from one of your customers:
I know that WayTools has been sending out test units to people on their forums, but other than that, I haven't heard that they're any closer to a shipping date. I think what happened with the TextBlade is regrettable -- I saw a working test unit in 2015, but here, three years later, the product hasn't shipped.
We cut ties with them completely in early 2016 and we won't be covering the TextBlade again in the future. I highly recommend getting a refund from WayTools if you pre-ordered a TextBlade unless you don't mind waiting indefinitely.
She says: "what happened with the TextBlade is regrettable" -- no mention of her safety, or that the reaction in the comments was regrettable. It was the TEXTBLADE, and that even three years later (well, four now and counting), "the product hasn't shipped."
She also says they cut ties with you completely. Not temporarily until you ship, but completely. They will not write about your product ever, even after it ships. If you want me to spell it out, that means they're disgusted with the company, more than the product, though what happened with it was "regrettable". Why would they go so far as to recommend getting a refund?
You keep deferring to the evidence as if it will save you. Clearly, it doesn't. Meaning you don't even read the evidence you're referring to.
People criticized her coverage of Waytools because they did not want to see a macrumors reporter getting publicly used and blatantly lied to and thus discredited as a journalist.
Actually, they attacked her as well.
I didn't read anything I would particularly construe as an attack. I saw people criticizing a professional journalist and cautioning her that she appeared to possibly be either intentionally or unintentionally acting as a pawn or shill for a very disreputable lying company, and people were concerned about that. The reporters reply was very straightforward and analytical about the criticism. There really was not a lot of drama, not the way the narcissistic Waytools_Support actor Mark Knighton wants to spin it.
And you know what, as far as this word: 'attack'. Its BS. We are all grownups. The world is a tough place. 'Attacking' people is not in and of itself a bad thing, particularly if the attack is well deserved or draws well deserved attention to an issue that needs awareness.
People react negatively to lies and propaganda. They want to attack it.
Waytools has brought all of the negativity that orbits their sphere upon themselves, and you can tell how bad it is because there is so much negativity surrounding this company it has collapsed into a black hole of lies and deceit.
How about multiple promised deliveries over a four year period, is that opinion or fact?
It is a fact that they made multiple estimates over a four year period, as I have acknowledged many times. It is a false statement to claim that they were all actually promises. Which I've also pointed out many times. Which means people are fine when they complain about delays. Not so fine when they claim they were broken "promises".
How about projecting a delivery when one's knowledge of one's own track record shows one's ability to make such projections for a given project to be nonexistent? Did that happen repeatedly or not?
Well, if that is your argument, you would have to say they should never make an estimate again. If that is your position, fine. But I suspect few people would say to not give out estimates any more. So to please you, assuming you would favor no more estimates, they would displease others. Interestingly, I suspect for many things a critic has said WT should do, there was probably another critic who said the opposite, but both attacking WT over the same thing!
I have no trouble believing in the virtues of the current design or that many people have failed to grasp the value of the design package the company is sticking with. Fact is, there is a perverse power source for all the drama in the fact that the design to all appearances seems to warrant the praise and hype. Were that not the case people would just move on. That may be part of the equation that has resulted in so much exposure for the company's bad practices. A producer of generic foldable keyboards would likely just have had most of the orders cancelled and faded away after the initial fiasco.
I can pretty much agree with that - though I would also point out that a lot of the attacks on the company are unfair. I've never objected to the fair ones. Made them myself. But, confirming that many people have been unfair is the fact that, in spite of me criticizing WT myself, I have often been accused of only defending them.
Unfairness has been a primary issue for me on the internet for decades. After I first, foolishly, thought it would be a great way for people to have rational discussions with others all over the world. After a couple years I realized that wasn't going to happen no matter how nice I was to people who weren't, so I set out to stand against the crap. Most choose to ignore it. Or to just abandon places when it inevitably gets bad. And that's fine. Their decision and completely understandable. But to me, that is like letting nasty people take over anyplace and making it so nice folks don't even when to go there anymore. I choose not to let that happen without challenge.
I didn't read anything I would particularly construe as an attack. I saw people criticizing a professional journalist and cautioning her that she appeared to possibly be either intentionally or unintentionally acting as a pawn or shill for a very disreputable lying company, and people were concerned about that.
The summary of it is right there, from your own reference, made by the reporter herself:
A lot of the accusations in this thread have been off base and highly stressful for me. I've been struggling figure out how to explain myself in a way that you guys would find satisfactory, and I'm still not sure how to do it. The idea that I would deceive MacRumors readers or write something untruthful for money (or whatever other benefit I'm supposedly getting out of this) is so entirely preposterous to me that I've been at a loss for words.”
Let's break it down:
"Accusations". Which are attacks. False attacks since she says they were "off base". That's enough just from her first sentence to establish it happened.
The second sentence shows that her effort to explain has not been successful. This matches the attacks on anyone on the WTF who dared defend WT on anything. For example, I have explained - and included many examples - of me criticizing WT. Yet the people who said I never did just kept lying about it. The MR reporter went through a similar reaction where people ignored what she was actually saying.
Third sentence refers to people accusing her of trying to deceive. Pretty sure such accusation are attacks.
She's also clearly shocked that anyone would do that. I'm not surprised at all.
I can pretty much agree with that - though I would also point out that a lot of the attacks on the company are unfair. I've never objected to the fair ones. Made them myself. But, confirming that many people have been unfair is the fact that, in spite of me criticizing WT myself, I have often been accused of only defending them.
Unfairness has been a primary issue for me on the internet for decades. After I first, foolishly, thought it would be a great way for people to have rational discussions with others all over the world. After a couple years I realized that wasn't going to happen no matter how nice I was to people who weren't, so I set out to stand against the crap.
I dont see you defending unfairness here. I see a very specific bias in you and a keen focus on a specific narrative. You are like a defense lawyer. A good analogy to you and Waytools would be you are like Johnnie Cochran defending OJ. You ignore any and all facts and statements that hurt your narrative. You spin any facts that can suit your narrative. Alright, OJ beat his wife on several occasions, nobody is perfect, but he didnt kill her! Ok, WayTools missed 500 shipping deadlines by an infinite margin over the past 4+ years and all the while collected more and more money from more customers showing them a specific time frame when they would receive their product, but they never lied to anybody! Your propaganda strains credulity and you know it.
But thats ok - it is good, because the ludicrous replies from WayTools_Support and Kahuna characters shine light on the defective personalities behind the company and the lies they believe and the lies they tell, which helps caution additional people away from being involved and giving the narcissists more money.
Clearly the people behind Waytools are never going to change. The only thing that can be done is to starve them to death until they disappear.
TextBladeDenied said: I dont see you defending unfairness here.
I see a very specific bias in you and a keen focus on a specific narrative.
WayTools missed 500 shipping deadlines
1. I don't really expect you to see anything. You have your meme and nothing else seems to matter to you.
2. I very specifically object to unfair attacks so I'm happy to be "biased" that way.
3. Your math is off. By a LOT. It's that unfairness thing. You could have just said they missed all their estimates which have ranged from monthly to quarterly. Somehow an accurate complaint doesn't seem to be enough for you.
It is a fact that they made multiple estimates over a four year period, as I have acknowledged many times. It is a false statement to claim that they were all actually promises. Which I've also pointed out many times. Which means people are fine when they complain about delays. Not so fine when they claim they were broken "promises".
Yes 'promises' is a red herring. Had I spent more time editing I would have taken it out, as it was not my intention to get into a discussion of the various senses of 'promise', ranging from the formal declaration demanded by children, to the informal "promised delivery" with which in normal circumstances one might describe the quote of Mr. Knighton in the MacRumors article of February, 2016, regarding a general release after TRG testing in "up to several weeks." Of course, the present conversation is clearly not 'normal circumstances', so my mistake.
This leaves an interesting question: Granting for the sake of discussion that a statement which includes no qualifiers should be considered an estimate, when does the lack of firm commitment implied by 'estimate' stop excusing someone? Is it after two instances? Three? Ten? How many years? At what point would you, who seem to pride yourself on your objectivity, say that the behavior has become more serious than a wrong estimate? What word would you use for something implied by a series of early estimates given to paying customers? Assurance? Agreement?
Well, if that is your argument, you would have to say they should never make an estimate again. If that is your position, fine. But I suspect few people would say to not give out estimates any more. So to please you, assuming you would favor no more estimates, they would displease others. Interestingly, I suspect for many things a critic has said WT should do, there was probably another critic who said the opposite, but both attacking WT over the same thing!
Your implicit premise is that the standard for correct behavior is how many people like what one said. I don't think that's right. I think in this context the standard for correct behavior is the truth as objectively as one knows how to grasp it. If one's track record of six months, let alone four years, is of failing to correctly estimate the end of R & D, then for sure one should not give out estimates! Even more so if the goal is to 'please' people despite one's proven inability to make accurate projections--what will you then please them with but some kind of fiction?.
Better to displease people with the truth and just give factual updates on the current project, and accept the fact that the money one claims one does not need will have to be refunded to more people. One wouldn't, after all, want to seem as though one were making one's bad estimates for the purpose of motivating people to leave their orders in place, and their money in one's hands.
If I went through every post the Waytools character ever posted on the waytools forum, and gathered together every time they 'estimated' when the next estimated ship date would be, plus all the official estimates, plus all the estimates shown on order pages, plus all the changes to the estimated date ranges shown on their calendar, plus all the articles where they quoted an estimated ship date, after 4+ years, I think the number 500 would not be off by a lot at all.
But I agree with you, ultimately, they have missed all their estimates, whatever the number might be, for over 4 straight years, because they are shameless liars who never intended to release the keyboard at any of the times they stated.
actually it was from customers that emailed us about the antics of these pseudonyms.
What?
You are saying that you took hearsay from strangers and based a slanderous 4 year campaign on it?
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
In fact I am glad that you let that slip out, I had wondered why there was a sudden rush to do what you did. And now we know.
----
On the matter of MacRumors; If the author had wanted to add anything clarifying the situation further she would have. She did not, and we all just have to respect her decision on that. There is clearly an expression of distress from her in her farewell comment and no matter what anyone's opinion on what happened based on what they saw at the time and subsequently, we all need to show a little empathy here.
You can vacillate back an forth on the whys and wherefores of exactly why coverage stopped but it is clear that No other Macrumor contributors have published a piece about the Textblade since.
In fact the last communication from MR on the subject in closing the last open thread on the topic was:
If the vendor wants to provide details and status, he certainly can do it on his site.
That does not to me sound like site admin is interested in posting of further information regarding the Textblade at all.
----
Sigh, this:
Our company posts are always openly marked, and our staff has real names.
Posts are marked, staff have names. Account does not have real name. Account is not staff? Because staff have real names but pseudonymous WT support accounts do not.
Does anonymous poster using the support account ID actually proof their work?
----
"Accusations". Which are attacks.
Yeah maybe apply that to some of WT's claims about me. I post for clarification from the author and 'wham' WT start walking the general public through their collection of tinfoil hats. We have many difference over the years, but 100,000 words of posts managed to find the odd patch of common ground. Did WT by your definition here attack me in this thread?
----
To summarise WT_support's position:
if you have an order and criticism of WT you are disingenuous because you kept your order.
if you have a cancelled order and criticism of WT, you are disingenuous because you aren't a customer and have nothing to gain.
if you never ordered and criticism of WT, you are a bad actor.
Had I spent more time editing I would have taken it out
No problem. As I've said, even when people go way overboard in their anger, if it is an isolated case, no big deal.
the quote of Mr. Knighton in the MacRumors article of February, 2016, regarding a general release after TRG testing in "up to several weeks.
That general situation (not necessarily that specific quote), WT did miss their target too as, if I recall correctly, Treg was expected to start in February. The first units were not sent out until March 26. Measured from the date of the article, maybe that could be within "several weeks" as it is a pretty vague term, but, first, that wasn't the first shipping estimate so I know they missed the original estimate. And, for me anyway, I tend to think of "several" or "few" as ranging from 3 or more, but generally not more than 6. That's just my usage though.
when does the lack of firm commitment implied by 'estimate' stop excusing someone? Is it after two instances? Three? Ten? How many years? At what point would you, who seem to pride yourself on your objectivity, say that the behavior has become more serious than a wrong estimate?
That's a good question and the answer is going to vary with the individual. But it still needs to be rational. So I would object to someone presenting as a fact a claim that if it is past X amount of time, they must be lying because, no matter how mad they are, they simply are making an assumption.
But, since I guess this is about where I would draw the line, I look at more than how many times they've been wrong. Of course, being a tester, I have an advantage, but I'll do my best to explain.
First, I look at the fact that Julie Clover had seen it going back to early 2015 as I recall and got what was probably close to a Treg unit in February 2016. The importance of this is that we had first hand confirmation about a lot of stuff from someone outside of WayTools. And it wasn't someone who could have been made up out of thin air as she has been a writer for a long time.
Even better, of course, was when I got one. Now, I'll ignore the silly claims some made that we were really just WT employees - another of those accusations which they could not possibly know one way or the other. But since I know I'm just me, ordinary retired teacher, this confirmed a LOT of things. Consider:
That the hardware is a polished piece of work. It wasn't done, as it turned out later because of problems, but it was believed to be the version they would ship. And that shows in every aspect of construction. How many times have you seen shipping versions of products that seem like sloppy workmanship? This was great. So who spends the time and money to get it so good, but is trying to rip people off?
Then we can go on the the firmware. Sure, it wasn't ready then, even if WT didn't realize that until we made our reports, but even in that flawed state, we could see that the demands on this firmware were so great that a heck of a lot of work had to go into it. Again, why bother if you are just going to rip people off?
Also, and this has direct bearing on the actual delays, we could see why (at least on a surface level) why it was so hard to solve all the problems. What we did see was most reported problems were quickly fixed. Great! But we also saw new issues pop up as we tested more and got new testers in. So most of us are not exactly prone to think this is just a bunch of phony excuses to cover up lying. We saw the problems. And we saw them keep coming.
I have theorized, based on this experience, that WT absolutely thought it was ready in late March 2016. Why? Because they had probably solved the problems their own people had discovered. And in each case, probably did so quickly, just as they did with most of ours. Only to find out that testing with more people showed there were way too many people who type in ways that their fixes didn't cover. So, no, I'm not going to question their honesty about the delays.
I said long ago, but well into Treg, that it was possible that the technology just wasn't ready yet to get the quality WT wanted and that, if so, they may decide to just cancel the whole thing. No, I didn't think that would happen, but until they ship, it is a possibility. And at the time I was still seeing new problems reported. Would they ever end?
Barring some revelation from secret memos, I don't see any reason not to accept the delays based on what WT has said, based on what I have actually seen.
Your implicit premise is that the standard for correct behavior is how many people like what one said.
Well, that's not what I meant. I did want to point out that what some critics want, other critics don't want. People tend to think their approach is the only one WT should consider.
But, as I said, if you don't think they should give out any more estimates, then you are making a consistent argument. I just don't think most people would want that to happen. Doesn't make them right, of course.
Better to displease people with the truth and just give factual updates on the current project
Well, the lack of a big update, especially when told so many times it will happen in, "a few days", "next week", and other pretty limited time ranges is one I've complained to WT about a lot - even to the point of providing their statements and the dates they were made. It was quite a list. I think an embarrassing list. I don't suppose they liked it, but it was absolutely accurate and I didn't make accusations beyond the actual facts.
While I have no problems seeing a good reason for lots of delays, I can't say the same for the delay in updates. Oh, I can see how some event may cause some parts of an update to be left out or need alteration - thus maybe some delay - but it has always seemed to me that it is hard to imagine a change that would prevent a good portion of the update to be released. Maybe when it finally is, it will make sense, but I sure can't tell before that happens and my imagination can't come up with anything as is.
One wouldn't, after all, want to seem as though one were making one's bad estimates for the purpose of motivating people to leave their orders in place, and their money in one's hands.
Well, wouldn't you say that for all those who ordered early, that also wouldn't work anymore? I mean, for the very reason some people are insisting WT lied because of how many times they've been wrong, wouldn't those early orderers, even if they don't think they lied, figure this is too long to trust the latest estimate?
I suspect most of them don't particularly think any estimate is dependable. I sure hope they meet this new one, but I'm not going to be shocked if they don't. I also think they either still think it will ship eventually, as I do, and figure they might as well keep the benefits of being an early order - or they may have serious doubts but can afford the loss even if WT were to go bankrupt and could not refund at all.
If I went through every post the Waytools character ever posted on the waytools forum, and gathered together every time they 'estimated' when the next estimated ship date would be, plus all the official estimates, plus all the estimates shown on order pages, plus all the changes to the estimated date ranges shown on their calendar, plus all the articles where they quoted an estimated ship date, after 4+ years, I think the number 500 would not be off by a lot at all.
The number of estimates is the number of different dates they've given. It does not include how many times they referred to the same estimate!
But glad to see you now properly describe them as "estimates".
Do not try to subvert the meaning of my words by quoting my use of the word 'estimate' Kahuna. I noticed that is a tactic you use on people often. The words 'estimate' and 'deadline' are utterly meaningless as applied by Waytools.
Quoting myself from earlier in this thread to clarify your misrepresentation of any consistency in my views:
There was post after post after post from a Waytools rep (probably Mark Knighton) saying things along the lines of 'we just have to fix this 'vaguely undefined issue' and then shipping looks 'on track' 'very good' 'promising' 'certain' 'within the next few hours' 'tomorrow' 'the next few days' 'next week' 'the next few weeks' 'next month'. They were statements that aimed to be vague, misleading, or disprovable, but were still accountable to any reasonable person as articulating a window of time which was, by any sane interpretation, far, far, far less than 4 years.
Any time Waytools 'estimated' a ship date, whether it was a date certain, or a time frame, it mattered not, because it never happened. They were always lying.
Do not try to subvert the meaning of my words by quoting my use of the word 'estimate' Kahuna. I noticed that is a tactic you use on people often. The words 'estimate' and 'deadline' are utterly meaningless as applied by Waytools.
There was post after post after post from a Waytools rep (probably Mark Knighton) saying things along the lines of 'we just have to fix this 'vaguely undefined issue' and then shipping looks 'on track' 'very good' 'promising' 'certain' 'within the next few hours' 'tomorrow' 'the next few days' 'next week' 'the next few weeks' 'next month'. They were statements that aimed to be vague, misleading, or disprovable, but were still accountable to any reasonable person as articulating a window of time which was, by any sane interpretation, far, far, far less than 4 years.
Any time Waytools 'estimated' a ship date, whether it was a date certain, or a time frame, it mattered not, because it never happened.
1. Just pointing out your improved use of words. And "estimate" and "deadline" are quite different things.
2. The second paragraph I quoted from you is interesting. I don't recall the exact words they used at various times, but I know darn well they never used words like "certain", "within the next few hours", "tomorrow", etc when referring to their shipping ESTIMATES.
3. Third paragraph, an "estimate" pretty much by definition is not a "date certain"!
I would like to take the opportunity we are having communication with WT to focus on QA of the TB as would like to know in more detail where we are in the firmware completion (and I stress more detail: when it will go out to TREG, how much time for validation, when they aim for it to be ready, etc etc). I still want my TB asap I guess.
You will never get accurate or truthful responses to any of those questions from Waytools. Trying to communicate with them is pointless. Whenever you feel the urge to ask them a question with an expectation that they might respond with a sincere answer, you need to realize that their gaslighting has been effective on you. Shake off the effects and remind yourself that they are liars and they will never give you truthful answers.
dabigkahuna said: 1. Just pointing out your improved use of words. And "estimate" and "deadline" are quite different things.
2. The second paragraph I quoted from you is interesting. I don't recall the exact words they used at various times, but I know darn well they never used words like "certain", "within the next few hours", "tomorrow", etc when referring to their shipping ESTIMATES. 3. Third paragraph, an "estimate" pretty much by definition is not a "date certain"!
I understand you are doing your best to troll for Waytools by obsessing on nonsense. Its your job. Try to keep the new orders flowing in so you can further the pyramid scheme and maintain your lifestyle.
The point is that every ship deadline they ever mentioned, whether it was a specific date, or an estimated date, or a specific time frame, or an estimated time frame - it does not matter - every one of those statements was a falsehood.
The money The money The money. Waytools shipped nothing but they want to keep the money. 4+ years.
TextBladeDenied said: I understand you are doing your best to troll for Waytools by obsessing on nonsense.
The point is that every ship deadline they ever mentioned, whether it was a specific date, or an estimated date, or a specific time frame, or an estimated time frame - it does not matter - every one of those statements was a falsehood.
The money The money The money. Waytools shipped nothing but they want to keep the money. 4+ years.
Funny how you don't show anything I said was wrong. I guess you are better at just focusing on the person rather than what they said.
Not "deadlines", "estimates". Why can't you stick to actual facts?
Yes, they have the money. I don't think they should have charged before shipping, as I've said many times. But you can take your money back. It always seems strange to me that you insist upon maintaining your order, yet tell everyone else they shouldn't order.
It's a strange thing I've noticed - that those who complain about WT in the most extreme ways will tell people what they "should" do. I don't see that coming from treggers. Oh, sure, they'll say things like "it's worth the wait" because, well, because they feel it is worth the wait. But I don't see them telling people they "should" order it. Or that they "should NOT" cancel. They seem quite willing to give their opinions, but not claim that everyone should make the same decision they have.
In fact, EVERY time someone asks me about my TB, I always tell them up front that:
1. It's great.
2. It has been delayed over and over again for 4 years and, while I expect it will ship, I sure can't guarantee it.
Comments
Why do you guys engage in such childish behavior? If you want to block what you don't want to hear, why are you here? Why don't you just stay on WT forums where Waytools does that for you? It seems like you guys want to shadow ban people, and whining when you can't.
I have no trouble believing in the virtues of the current design or that many people have failed to grasp the value of the design package the company is sticking with. Fact is, there is a perverse power source for all the drama in the fact that the design to all appearances seems to warrant the praise and hype. Were that not the case people would just move on. That may be part of the equation that has resulted in so much exposure for the company's bad practices. A producer of generic foldable keyboards would likely just have had most of the orders cancelled and faded away after the initial fiasco.
She says: "what happened with the TextBlade is regrettable" -- no mention of her safety, or that the reaction in the comments was regrettable. It was the TEXTBLADE, and that even three years later (well, four now and counting), "the product hasn't shipped."
She also says they cut ties with you completely. Not temporarily until you ship, but completely. They will not write about your product ever, even after it ships. If you want me to spell it out, that means they're disgusted with the company, more than the product, though what happened with it was "regrettable". Why would they go so far as to recommend getting a refund?
You keep deferring to the evidence as if it will save you. Clearly, it doesn't. Meaning you don't even read the evidence you're referring to.
And you know what, as far as this word: 'attack'. Its BS. We are all grownups. The world is a tough place. 'Attacking' people is not in and of itself a bad thing, particularly if the attack is well deserved or draws well deserved attention to an issue that needs awareness.
People react negatively to lies and propaganda. They want to attack it.
Waytools has brought all of the negativity that orbits their sphere upon themselves, and you can tell how bad it is because there is so much negativity surrounding this company it has collapsed into a black hole of lies and deceit.
They lie. They have the money.
Well, if that is your argument, you would have to say they should never make an estimate again. If that is your position, fine. But I suspect few people would say to not give out estimates any more. So to please you, assuming you would favor no more estimates, they would displease others. Interestingly, I suspect for many things a critic has said WT should do, there was probably another critic who said the opposite, but both attacking WT over the same thing!
I can pretty much agree with that - though I would also point out that a lot of the attacks on the company are unfair. I've never objected to the fair ones. Made them myself. But, confirming that many people have been unfair is the fact that, in spite of me criticizing WT myself, I have often been accused of only defending them.
The summary of it is right there, from your own reference, made by the reporter herself:
Let's break it down:
But thats ok - it is good, because the ludicrous replies from WayTools_Support and Kahuna characters shine light on the defective personalities behind the company and the lies they believe and the lies they tell, which helps caution additional people away from being involved and giving the narcissists more money.
Clearly the people behind Waytools are never going to change. The only thing that can be done is to starve them to death until they disappear.
3. Your math is off. By a LOT. It's that unfairness thing. You could have just said they missed all their estimates which have ranged from monthly to quarterly. Somehow an accurate complaint doesn't seem to be enough for you.
This leaves an interesting question: Granting for the sake of discussion that a statement which includes no qualifiers should be considered an estimate, when does the lack of firm commitment implied by 'estimate' stop excusing someone? Is it after two instances? Three? Ten? How many years? At what point would you, who seem to pride yourself on your objectivity, say that the behavior has become more serious than a wrong estimate? What word would you use for something implied by a series of early estimates given to paying customers? Assurance? Agreement?
Better to displease people with the truth and just give factual updates on the current project, and accept the fact that the money one claims one does not need will have to be refunded to more people. One wouldn't, after all, want to seem as though one were making one's bad estimates for the purpose of motivating people to leave their orders in place, and their money in one's hands.
But I agree with you, ultimately, they have missed all their estimates, whatever the number might be, for over 4 straight years, because they are shameless liars who never intended to release the keyboard at any of the times they stated.
What?
You are saying that you took hearsay from strangers and based a slanderous 4 year campaign on it?
You should be ashamed of yourselves.
In fact I am glad that you let that slip out, I had wondered why there was a sudden rush to do what you did. And now we know.
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On the matter of MacRumors; If the author had wanted to add anything clarifying the situation further she would have. She did not, and we all just have to respect her decision on that. There is clearly an expression of distress from her in her farewell comment and no matter what anyone's opinion on what happened based on what they saw at the time and subsequently, we all need to show a little empathy here.You can vacillate back an forth on the whys and wherefores of exactly why coverage stopped but it is clear that No other Macrumor contributors have published a piece about the Textblade since.
In fact the last communication from MR on the subject in closing the last open thread on the topic was:
That does not to me sound like site admin is interested in posting of further information regarding the Textblade at all.
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Sigh, this:
Posts are marked, staff have names. Account does not have real name. Account is not staff? Because staff have real names but pseudonymous WT support accounts do not.
Does anonymous poster using the support account ID actually proof their work?
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Yeah maybe apply that to some of WT's claims about me. I post for clarification from the author and 'wham' WT start walking the general public through their collection of tinfoil hats. We have many difference over the years, but 100,000 words of posts managed to find the odd patch of common ground. Did WT by your definition here attack me in this thread?
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To summarise WT_support's position:
- if you have an order and criticism of WT you are disingenuous because you kept your order.
- if you have a cancelled order and criticism of WT, you are disingenuous because you aren't a customer and have nothing to gain.
- if you never ordered and criticism of WT, you are a bad actor.
RNo problem. As I've said, even when people go way overboard in their anger, if it is an isolated case, no big deal.
That general situation (not necessarily that specific quote), WT did miss their target too as, if I recall correctly, Treg was expected to start in February. The first units were not sent out until March 26. Measured from the date of the article, maybe that could be within "several weeks" as it is a pretty vague term, but, first, that wasn't the first shipping estimate so I know they missed the original estimate. And, for me anyway, I tend to think of "several" or "few" as ranging from 3 or more, but generally not more than 6. That's just my usage though.
I have theorized, based on this experience, that WT absolutely thought it was ready in late March 2016. Why? Because they had probably solved the problems their own people had discovered. And in each case, probably did so quickly, just as they did with most of ours. Only to find out that testing with more people showed there were way too many people who type in ways that their fixes didn't cover. So, no, I'm not going to question their honesty about the delays.
I said long ago, but well into Treg, that it was possible that the technology just wasn't ready yet to get the quality WT wanted and that, if so, they may decide to just cancel the whole thing. No, I didn't think that would happen, but until they ship, it is a possibility. And at the time I was still seeing new problems reported. Would they ever end?
Barring some revelation from secret memos, I don't see any reason not to accept the delays based on what WT has said, based on what I have actually seen.
Well, that's not what I meant. I did want to point out that what some critics want, other critics don't want. People tend to think their approach is the only one WT should consider.
But, as I said, if you don't think they should give out any more estimates, then you are making a consistent argument. I just don't think most people would want that to happen. Doesn't make them right, of course.
Well, the lack of a big update, especially when told so many times it will happen in, "a few days", "next week", and other pretty limited time ranges is one I've complained to WT about a lot - even to the point of providing their statements and the dates they were made. It was quite a list. I think an embarrassing list. I don't suppose they liked it, but it was absolutely accurate and I didn't make accusations beyond the actual facts.
While I have no problems seeing a good reason for lots of delays, I can't say the same for the delay in updates. Oh, I can see how some event may cause some parts of an update to be left out or need alteration - thus maybe some delay - but it has always seemed to me that it is hard to imagine a change that would prevent a good portion of the update to be released. Maybe when it finally is, it will make sense, but I sure can't tell before that happens and my imagination can't come up with anything as is.
Well, wouldn't you say that for all those who ordered early, that also wouldn't work anymore? I mean, for the very reason some people are insisting WT lied because of how many times they've been wrong, wouldn't those early orderers, even if they don't think they lied, figure this is too long to trust the latest estimate?
I suspect most of them don't particularly think any estimate is dependable. I sure hope they meet this new one, but I'm not going to be shocked if they don't. I also think they either still think it will ship eventually, as I do, and figure they might as well keep the benefits of being an early order - or they may have serious doubts but can afford the loss even if WT were to go bankrupt and could not refund at all.
But glad to see you now properly describe them as "estimates".
Quoting myself from earlier in this thread to clarify your misrepresentation of any consistency in my views:
There was post after post after post from a Waytools rep (probably Mark Knighton) saying things along the lines of 'we just have to fix this 'vaguely undefined issue' and then shipping looks 'on track' 'very good' 'promising' 'certain' 'within the next few hours' 'tomorrow' 'the next few days' 'next week' 'the next few weeks' 'next month'. They were statements that aimed to be vague, misleading, or disprovable, but were still accountable to any reasonable person as articulating a window of time which was, by any sane interpretation, far, far, far less than 4 years.
Any time Waytools 'estimated' a ship date, whether it was a date certain, or a time frame, it mattered not, because it never happened. They were always lying.
3. Third paragraph, an "estimate" pretty much by definition is not a "date certain"!
The point is that every ship deadline they ever mentioned, whether it was a specific date, or an estimated date, or a specific time frame, or an estimated time frame - it does not matter - every one of those statements was a falsehood.
The money The money The money. Waytools shipped nothing but they want to keep the money. 4+ years.
Not "deadlines", "estimates". Why can't you stick to actual facts?
Yes, they have the money. I don't think they should have charged before shipping, as I've said many times. But you can take your money back. It always seems strange to me that you insist upon maintaining your order, yet tell everyone else they shouldn't order.
2. It has been delayed over and over again for 4 years and, while I expect it will ship, I sure can't guarantee it.