This thread has taken off! I haven't gotten to chime in for oh... the hundred or so posts it gained in like two days.
I will say this though... I find it funny that saying someone has a confederate flag doesn't make them a racist, but giving a speech at Bob Jones University does.
It just shows the double standard. To be fair, I don't think Bush should visit there and should denounce them for having rules against interacial dating. I do find the double standard amusing.
Nick
What do confederate flags and Bob Jones University have to do with each other?
This thread has taken off! I haven't gotten to chime in for oh... the hundred or so posts it gained in like two days.
I will say this though... I find it funny that saying someone has a confederate flag doesn't make them a racist, but giving a speech at Bob Jones University does.
It just shows the double standard. To be fair, I don't think Bush should visit there and should denounce them for having rules against interacial dating. I do find the double standard amusing.
Nick
Are you going to respond to my post or are you going to keep flooding the zone?
You know guys I was a little too serious with the whole Dean confederate flag PR stunt.
I think I just may have it all figured out now....
Dean will win the Democratic primary and announce his african american running mate....
hmmmmmmmmmm interesting.
Dean might be brilliant after all.
Could be, could be, I hope so... if not he is still missing a few screws.
Quote:
Sekou Diyday, 25, a supermarket buyer, confronted Dean with the question about the Confederate flag and comments the former governor had made over the weekend in an interview with the Des Moines Register. ?I was extremely offended,? Diyday said. ?Could you please explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans after making a comment of that nature,? he said to applause from the audience.
Sharpton interjected that Dean had failed to answer the question, then said the former governor had misquoted King. ?You can?t bring a Confederate flag to the table of brotherhood,? he said.
He added, ?You are not a bigot, but you appear to be too arrogant to say ?I?m wrong? and go on.?
Edwards, who represents North Carolina, was unwilling to let the subject go.
?Let me tell you, the last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do,? he said.
Diyday, the 25-year-old Bostonian who asked the question, said later he was unimpressed with Dean?s response. ?He took a lot of steps back by completely ignoring the question,? he said.
"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
Dr. Howard Dean
BULL CRAP CRAP CRAP.
Democrats could do themselves a favor and stop dividing people with their false history lessons and actually read about people who did help to unite the country.
a) all he meant was he wants people that have been voting republicans and not getting helath care to vote democrat and at least stand a chance to get it.
a) all he meant was he wants people that have been voting republicans and not getting helath care to vote democrat and at least stand a chance to get it.
What about the rest of his quote??
Quote:
"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
Dr. Howard Dean
I am making reference to this part
Quote:
The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us
Democrats could do themselves a favor and stop dividing people with their false history lessons and actually read about people who did help to unite the country.
Just so you know, the Hoover Institution is a conservative think-tank. I'm not sure how that applies to the article itself, but I think it's important that you provide a disclaimer saying such. ("Although articles from such and such are generally favorable to conservatives, here's why I think you should pay attention to it.") Just a suggestion, of course.
first off bunge not "my" republican. You see I don't work that way. "I" don't have teams or parties that are always "right" I stand outside as an outsider and I give credit where credit is due. I suspect some democrats in the Supreme Court and in places of leadership in government helped change the tide in segregated schools and you know what? I admire them for it.
They did the right thing democrat or republican.
More people should think outside the party in order for the right thing to be.
Just so you know, the Hoover Institution is a conservative think-tank. I'm not sure how that applies to the article itself, but I think it's important that you provide a disclaimer saying such. ("Although articles from such and such are generally favorable to conservatives, here's why I think you should pay attention to it.") Just a suggestion, of course.
Why Shawn? You can read can you not? Liberals always think we need a nanny to explain everything.
Who said we can't read for ourselves?
If that link was not good for you here is one that you might just might can read.
first off bunge not "my" republican. You see I don't work that way.
Is that why you keep emphasizing that it was a Republican that desegrated the country?
You don't work this way? Is that why you keep making generalizations about the Democrats and their false histories?
You claim bull crap when you're actually the one spewing most of it here.
You're blowing Dean's comments out of proportion because you don't want to like him. You're manufacturing a reason to dislike him.
You claim you don't like him because he's mugging for the TV cameras, but for some reason you weren't bothered by Bush landing on an aircraft carrier. It's just a hypocritical double standard.
Is that why you keep emphasizing that it was a Republican that desegrated the country?
You don't work this way? Is that why you keep making generalizations about the Democrats and their false histories?
You claim bull crap when you're actually the one spewing most of it here.
You're blowing Dean's comments out of proportion because you don't want to like him. You're manufacturing a reason to dislike him.
You claim you don't like him because he's mugging for the TV cameras, but for some reason you weren't bothered by Bush landing on an aircraft carrier. It's just a hypocritical double standard.
bunge I have had full integrity this entire time with my posts about this. I called dean on something HE said.
I pointed out that I have evidence which I linked to which would suggest something other than the drivel he is giving out to the public. I am not the only one peeved by the ignorance of Deen just look a few posts up at what I had in quotations by a local Bostonian who thought as I do as well as the other democrats on the platform in Boston.
I only speak my thoughts. You are welcome to your thoughts but don't play games as if I am being pro-republican here. I mentioned republicans to set a record straight that Dean had wrong when he said republicans have tried to divide americans over race since 1969. That is just CRAP.
Bush with his PR stunt is JUST AS SICK.
One day you may realize that I am not a partisan. I give credit where it is due and I call people on their bunk when it is out of line in a bad way.
This includes Bush and Dean and anyone else for that matter.
May this sink in. There is nothing complicated with my views here.
It stems from a desire of would be leaders to show integrity.
So now you're talking about the cognitive abilities of liberals as being sub-par?
Never said that and no Shawn I do not find them as being sub-par. I consider myself very liberal on various issues. I am simply stating that far often than not it seems liberals are those who demand all the nanny business.
This is not material to race issues and the ignorant statements given by Dean however.
You are really quite funny. Last time I checked, I'm not allowed to post a paragraph or so as a thread title. I linked to what he said and accurately portrayed it in my initial post. As usual you don't like the content so in typical Shawn fashion, you attack the poster/source/agenda/etc.
Dean is attempting a "Southern strategy." He is attempting to win back Southern male, white voters and telling them they don't have to leave any racist or oppressive baggage they may have at the door to join his big tent. Call it what it is and address the topic instead of ignoring the facts you don't like and tossing dust into the air.
Nick
I think you're mostly right. Dean is certainly trying out a Southern Strategy, but it's important to note that his reference to the guys with confederate flags in their trucks will be read in the South as a fairly nuanced one, and one that people who have no experience in the South (I lived for 24 years in Mississippi, and then nearly 10 in Oklahoma [which is NOT Southern, Max. I'm sorry Those Okies really want to be Southern, but bless their hearts, they just ain't]) may not be able to recognize as being as complex as it is.
He's appealing at once to both socio-economic class and to ideology here. And that ideology is far broader than just the "klan rally on the weekends" or the "never had a black person in my house" breeds of racism that are all over the place in the South. That ideology is terribly stubborn. It's incredibly independent. It is often reactionary. It is usually isolationist.
The South is also, you should keep in mind, a culture that has been told, for 140 years, that it is backwards, ignorant, savage, and otherwise generally nasty. Southerners are told not only that they talk funny, and slowly, but also that they sound stupid. This, of course, despite the fact that Mississippi alone produced William Faulkner, Eudora Welty, and Richard Wright all in roughly the same generation.
Most importantly, it is a culture that has SEEN the rest of the country "come after it"--first during the Civil War (which my great grandmother called "The War of Northern Aggression") and then a century later during the Civil Rights movement. If you don't believe that this is important, let me tell you this: when Kennedy was assassinated, the children in my mother's classroom cheered. My uncle Charlie was in a national guard unit mobilized to protect James Meredith (the first black student to enroll at Ole Miss), and apparently one night had to fire upon a bunch of drunk rednecks out looking to lynch someone. There is a part of the South that knows it has been invaded and remade twice by "yankees."
One of the results of that is an attempt to co-opt the symbols that are used to put it down (i.e. pointing to the confederate flag as a symbol of the South's horrid history), and so the flag becomes a sign of pride despite its negative connotations. It becomes adopted by good ol' boys as a sign not of racist ideologies (although certainly this is the case sometimes), but as a statement that despite what the rest of the culture seems to want them to think about themselves, they will no be ashamed.
And I think this is also an attempt to tap into what seems to me to be a really bizarre block of voters in the South. I believe it was in Alabama recently (Montgomery, maybe?) where the voters voted out someone because taxes were "too high" and yet turned around and supported a series of policies that were obviously, even to a partisan eye, not in their best interests. Sorry I can't be more specific.
There's something about this little "slip" that strikes me as a bit of "strategery." I mean, look at how all the conservatives here have responded. You all mostly said, in some form: "Look at Dean! He's appealing to racists with confederate flags!"
How's that going to play in the South when republicans all over the country start pointing to those joes in the South with confederate flags in their trucks and effectively calling them racists?
Comments
Originally posted by trumptman
This thread has taken off! I haven't gotten to chime in for oh... the hundred or so posts it gained in like two days.
I will say this though...
It just shows the double standard. To be fair, I don't think Bush should visit there and should denounce them for having rules against interacial dating. I do find the double standard amusing.
Nick
What do confederate flags and Bob Jones University have to do with each other?
Originally posted by trumptman
This thread has taken off! I haven't gotten to chime in for oh... the hundred or so posts it gained in like two days.
I will say this though...
It just shows the double standard. To be fair, I don't think Bush should visit there and should denounce them for having rules against interacial dating. I do find the double standard amusing.
Nick
Are you going to respond to my post or are you going to keep flooding the zone?
I think I just may have it all figured out now....
Dean will win the Democratic primary and announce his african american running mate....
hmmmmmmmmmm interesting.
Dean might be brilliant after all.
Could be, could be, I hope so... if not he is still missing a few screws.
Sekou Diyday, 25, a supermarket buyer, confronted Dean with the question about the Confederate flag and comments the former governor had made over the weekend in an interview with the Des Moines Register. ?I was extremely offended,? Diyday said. ?Could you please explain to me how you plan on being sensitive to needs and issues regarding slavery and African-Americans after making a comment of that nature,? he said to applause from the audience.
Sharpton interjected that Dean had failed to answer the question, then said the former governor had misquoted King. ?You can?t bring a Confederate flag to the table of brotherhood,? he said.
He added, ?You are not a bigot, but you appear to be too arrogant to say ?I?m wrong? and go on.?
Edwards, who represents North Carolina, was unwilling to let the subject go.
?Let me tell you, the last thing we need in the South is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do,? he said.
Diyday, the 25-year-old Bostonian who asked the question, said later he was unimpressed with Dean?s response. ?He took a lot of steps back by completely ignoring the question,? he said.
MSNBC Link
I have my doubts with Dean..
Discuss,
Fellows
Originally posted by chu_bakka
How about...
"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
Dr. Howard Dean
BULL CRAP CRAP CRAP.
Democrats could do themselves a favor and stop dividing people with their false history lessons and actually read about people who did help to unite the country.
How a Republican Desegregated the South's Schools
Fellowship
b)anyone remember sista souldja?
Originally posted by keyboardf12
a) all he meant was he wants people that have been voting republicans and not getting helath care to vote democrat and at least stand a chance to get it.
What about the rest of his quote??
"I intend to talk about race during this election in the South. The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us, and I'm going to bring us together. Because you know what? White folks in the South who drive pick-up trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
Dr. Howard Dean
I am making reference to this part
The Republicans have been talking about it since 1968 in order to divide us
in order to divide us he suggests.
How a Republican Desegregated the South's Schools
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
BULL CRAP CRAP CRAP.
Democrats could do themselves a favor and stop dividing people with their false history lessons and actually read about people who did help to unite the country.
How a Republican Desegregated the South's Schools
Fellowship
Just so you know, the Hoover Institution is a conservative think-tank. I'm not sure how that applies to the article itself, but I think it's important that you provide a disclaimer saying such. ("Although articles from such and such are generally favorable to conservatives, here's why I think you should pay attention to it.") Just a suggestion, of course.
Originally posted by bunge
Who wrote the laws that your Republican enforced?
first off bunge not "my" republican. You see I don't work that way. "I" don't have teams or parties that are always "right" I stand outside as an outsider and I give credit where credit is due. I suspect some democrats in the Supreme Court and in places of leadership in government helped change the tide in segregated schools and you know what? I admire them for it.
They did the right thing democrat or republican.
More people should think outside the party in order for the right thing to be.
Fellowship
What about the rest of his quote??
See
He took it in a different direction then i thought he would tonight that's why i brought up
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Just so you know, the Hoover Institution is a conservative think-tank. I'm not sure how that applies to the article itself, but I think it's important that you provide a disclaimer saying such. ("Although articles from such and such are generally favorable to conservatives, here's why I think you should pay attention to it.") Just a suggestion, of course.
Why Shawn? You can read can you not? Liberals always think we need a nanny to explain everything.
Who said we can't read for ourselves?
If that link was not good for you here is one that you might just might can read.
racematters.org
Again Shawn you can delete what you want to wash over as long as it fits your view.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
first off bunge not "my" republican. You see I don't work that way.
Is that why you keep emphasizing that it was a Republican that desegrated the country?
You don't work this way? Is that why you keep making generalizations about the Democrats and their false histories?
You claim bull crap when you're actually the one spewing most of it here.
You're blowing Dean's comments out of proportion because you don't want to like him. You're manufacturing a reason to dislike him.
You claim you don't like him because he's mugging for the TV cameras, but for some reason you weren't bothered by Bush landing on an aircraft carrier. It's just a hypocritical double standard.
Originally posted by bunge
Is that why you keep emphasizing that it was a Republican that desegrated the country?
You don't work this way? Is that why you keep making generalizations about the Democrats and their false histories?
You claim bull crap when you're actually the one spewing most of it here.
You're blowing Dean's comments out of proportion because you don't want to like him. You're manufacturing a reason to dislike him.
You claim you don't like him because he's mugging for the TV cameras, but for some reason you weren't bothered by Bush landing on an aircraft carrier. It's just a hypocritical double standard.
bunge I have had full integrity this entire time with my posts about this. I called dean on something HE said.
I pointed out that I have evidence which I linked to which would suggest something other than the drivel he is giving out to the public. I am not the only one peeved by the ignorance of Deen just look a few posts up at what I had in quotations by a local Bostonian who thought as I do as well as the other democrats on the platform in Boston.
I only speak my thoughts. You are welcome to your thoughts but don't play games as if I am being pro-republican here. I mentioned republicans to set a record straight that Dean had wrong when he said republicans have tried to divide americans over race since 1969. That is just CRAP.
Bush with his PR stunt is JUST AS SICK.
One day you may realize that I am not a partisan. I give credit where it is due and I call people on their bunk when it is out of line in a bad way.
This includes Bush and Dean and anyone else for that matter.
May this sink in. There is nothing complicated with my views here.
It stems from a desire of would be leaders to show integrity.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Why Shawn? You can read can you not? Liberals always think we need a nanny to explain everything.
Who said we can't read for ourselves?
If that link was not good for you here is one that you might just might can read.
racematters.org
Again Shawn you can delete what you want to wash over as long as it fits your view.
Fellowship
So now you're talking about the cognitive abilities of liberals as being sub-par?
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Liberals always think we need a nanny to explain everything. - Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
One day you may realize that I am not a partisan. - Fellowship
Originally posted by ShawnJ
So now you're talking about the cognitive abilities of liberals as being sub-par?
Never said that and no Shawn I do not find them as being sub-par. I consider myself very liberal on various issues. I am simply stating that far often than not it seems liberals are those who demand all the nanny business.
This is not material to race issues and the ignorant statements given by Dean however.
Fellowship
Originally posted by trumptman
You are really quite funny. Last time I checked, I'm not allowed to post a paragraph or so as a thread title. I linked to what he said and accurately portrayed it in my initial post. As usual you don't like the content so in typical Shawn fashion, you attack the poster/source/agenda/etc.
Dean is attempting a "Southern strategy." He is attempting to win back Southern male, white voters and telling them they don't have to leave any racist or oppressive baggage they may have at the door to join his big tent. Call it what it is and address the topic instead of ignoring the facts you don't like and tossing dust into the air.
Nick
I think you're mostly right. Dean is certainly trying out a Southern Strategy, but it's important to note that his reference to the guys with confederate flags in their trucks will be read in the South as a fairly nuanced one, and one that people who have no experience in the South (I lived for 24 years in Mississippi, and then nearly 10 in Oklahoma [which is NOT Southern, Max. I'm sorry
He's appealing at once to both socio-economic class and to ideology here. And that ideology is far broader than just the "klan rally on the weekends" or the "never had a black person in my house" breeds of racism that are all over the place in the South. That ideology is terribly stubborn. It's incredibly independent. It is often reactionary. It is usually isolationist.
The South is also, you should keep in mind, a culture that has been told, for 140 years, that it is backwards, ignorant, savage, and otherwise generally nasty. Southerners are told not only that they talk funny, and slowly, but also that they sound stupid. This, of course, despite the fact that Mississippi alone produced William Faulkner, Eudora Welty, and Richard Wright all in roughly the same generation.
Most importantly, it is a culture that has SEEN the rest of the country "come after it"--first during the Civil War (which my great grandmother called "The War of Northern Aggression") and then a century later during the Civil Rights movement. If you don't believe that this is important, let me tell you this: when Kennedy was assassinated, the children in my mother's classroom cheered. My uncle Charlie was in a national guard unit mobilized to protect James Meredith (the first black student to enroll at Ole Miss), and apparently one night had to fire upon a bunch of drunk rednecks out looking to lynch someone. There is a part of the South that knows it has been invaded and remade twice by "yankees."
One of the results of that is an attempt to co-opt the symbols that are used to put it down (i.e. pointing to the confederate flag as a symbol of the South's horrid history), and so the flag becomes a sign of pride despite its negative connotations. It becomes adopted by good ol' boys as a sign not of racist ideologies (although certainly this is the case sometimes), but as a statement that despite what the rest of the culture seems to want them to think about themselves, they will no be ashamed.
And I think this is also an attempt to tap into what seems to me to be a really bizarre block of voters in the South. I believe it was in Alabama recently (Montgomery, maybe?) where the voters voted out someone because taxes were "too high" and yet turned around and supported a series of policies that were obviously, even to a partisan eye, not in their best interests. Sorry I can't be more specific.
There's something about this little "slip" that strikes me as a bit of "strategery." I mean, look at how all the conservatives here have responded. You all mostly said, in some form: "Look at Dean! He's appealing to racists with confederate flags!"
How's that going to play in the South when republicans all over the country start pointing to those joes in the South with confederate flags in their trucks and effectively calling them racists?
Southern strategy, indeed.
Might work, too.
Cheers
Scott
I am liberal in philosophy in many ways.
Fellowship