I like meat but I'm not gung ho about it. My diet is something like this:
Morning, carbs in the form of bagel, waffles, cold cereal, or hot cereal, and coffee or juice. Once a week I'll have eggs & bacon too.
Lunch, Sandwiches (tuna, PB&Jam, or deli meats and cheese), sushi, oriental noodle bowl with chicken.
Dinner, this is when I'll have a steak, chicken breast, fish, etc. and vegetables. Maybe rice, potatoes or pasta if I'm iin the mood for carbs that late but usually not.
This is total bullshit. Do you even know anyone that does humanitarian work in third world countries? I'm guessing not, or maybe you have a sister that did a three week work camp in cambodia once at the most, since what you are saying is about as contrary to reality as one can get.
Last February I had one family member and another close friend who were helping people in the Ivory Coast. My aunt, who is a nun and has been doing this work for over 25 years, and a college student were both in the Ivory Coast, helping some of the poorest people in the world, build their village which had been destroyed by war, and create a new school for the children. Their trip was documented with pictures, and items which were given to them. Unfortunately, their mission ended early when apparently, mobs of armed rebels, where attacking non-locals in area villages. They were flown out by the UN, without completing their task due to the violence. However, they are planning to return in spring of 2004, to hopefully complete the project.
My cat passed this night. It was scheduled to shorten his pain today. But now it's unnecessary.
I think it's better this way. He died in his beloved home.
well one of our cats dies a few years ago of kidney disease. she was suffering to much. i was in the room with her when thye gave her the injection. it was very depressing, i cried. so she was with a loved one
There's a vet here in Raleigh that offers an 'at-home' kit for those that want to. It's simply the syringe with the drug. You administer it yourself to your pet in an environment not quite as unnerving as the vet's office. Of course, they have documentation out the wazoo for each prescription, but I think it's an interesting alternative for those that want it.
so in this case, why even eat plants? they are living things, why doesnt everyone just eat pills???
think about that.....
That's a stupid argument. The papers written regarding animal testing are the best place to look at the distinctions made for personage, etc, and they apply here.
Last February I had one family member and another close friend who were helping people in the Ivory Coast. My aunt, who is a nun and has been doing this work for over 25 years, and a college student were both in the Ivory Coast, helping some of the poorest people in the world, build their village which had been destroyed by war, and create a new school for the children. Their trip was documented with pictures, and items which were given to them. Unfortunately, their mission ended early when apparently, mobs of armed rebels, where attacking non-locals in area villages. They were flown out by the UN, without completing their task due to the violence. However, they are planning to return in spring of 2004, to hopefully complete the project.
Oh I see. You are one of the high and mighty types just because you know people that actually risked it. Well guess what. In my social group and at my work you are the odd one out if you haven't done or continue to do humanitarian work or are significantly involved in international politics and you will find few if any of us condemning other people for working to better the world.
Oh, and cute story. Unfortunately, it's all to common. Don't try to use the real suffering of other humans to justify your stupid, arrogant and ignorant condemnations of people for doing the right thing.
Let's look at what you said again:
Quote:
Originally posted by Mac Man 020581
I believe, that some people go on these crusades for animal protection, as a method to make themselves feel as if they are doing something to change the world, while knowingly, ignoring the larger more important issues.
Get a clue. And if you are so self righteous about it, go do it yourself rather than using someone else's intense experience to justify condemnation of good people.
Edit: Sorry if this is harsh, but I don't know what else to say to you. Tact is something I've always lacked.
Participating in life means causing death. No way around it. And we all draw lines about what's okay to kill, and what's not okay to kill.
Even the most dedicated vegan has an immune system that kills microorganisms and more complex multicellular parasites. If you're going to chant "A rat is an alligator is cow is a man", then why not add "...is a plasmodium falciparum is a bacillus anthracis"? (Okay, not counting the fact that those words are a lot harder to chant.)
We kill insects and arachnids all of the time, purely by accident or disregard, even when we don't go out of our way to kill them. A lumbering human body, especially one that wields large machinery, can't help but crush tiny lives all of the time. For instance, I've founds moths and spiders crushed in the hinges of doors. We are forced by merely existing to make choices about what organisms will die and which will get our protection. Perhaps there is something noble in trying to expand the circle of protection that we recognize, but that circle can never be inclusive of all life.
Okay, then. Perhaps you only care about what happens to warm, fuzzy or feathery animals, especially the ones humans often consider "cute". You're still imposing your own human standards on what lives and dies, but if it that makes you feel righteous, so be it. You're still not off the hook.
We compete with other animals even if when we aren't directly trying to kill them, and this competition causes death. Every acre of land devoted to human agriculture displaces animals that might have used the resources of that land. Animals die and will continue to die because we starve them in the competition for resources. Is death by starvation particularly humane? Is this killing more acceptable because it is indirect rather than direct? Indirection seems to do a great deal to sooth human consciences, but dead is dead for the animals that starve.
I'm also not convinced that humans can be totally free of animal products in their diets. From everything that I've heard, no strictly animal-product free diet contains all of the nutrients needed for human health. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at some point you'll need at least traces of animal-derived nutrients or you'll get very ill, if not die. Perhaps someday we'll be able to chemically synthesize these nutrients without the use of animals, but this certainly won't help support the pretense of veganism being "natural".
I'm all for reducing meat consumption, both for health and so that we can feed more people more efficiently. I'm all for improving the treatment of animals that are raised for food. Back to the original thread topic, I'm all for not causing animals pain in order to appease stupid human ideas about animal fashion. But I'm also tired of vegetarians and vegans with their blinders up, who don't understand the big picture of the cycle of life and death in which they are firmly embedded along with everyone else.
Okay, then. Perhaps you only care about what happens to warm, fuzzy or feathery animals, especially the ones humans often consider "cute". You're still imposing your own human standards on what lives and dies, but if it that makes you feel righteous, so be it. You're still not off the hook.
Both this argument and the overall one are not really dealing with the real debate.
First, the one above belittles the real issue: that of suffering, awareness of suffering and where the line resides that determines whether we are morally obligated to a being.
Second, most vegetarians I've known have always been in favor of growing as much of their own food as they can. There are many reasons for this that are not directly related to animals.
Which brings us to the fact that many vegetarians don't stop eating meat simply for the well-being of animals.
The other thing you didn't address is the most common reason for staying away from meat: because it can be fvcking nasty and dirty.
That said, I'm looking forward to a good steak soon.
Quote:
But I'm also tired of vegetarians and vegans with their blinders up, who don't understand the big picture of the cycle of life and death in which they are firmly embedded along with everyone else.
Stupidity is not a vegitarian problem. It's a people problem.
However, I think you are arguing against a stereotype, which is why I'm not joining in praise.
That's a stupid argument. The papers written regarding animal testing are the best place to look at the distinctions made for personage, etc, and they apply here.
not a stupid arguement, for you to live something must die. and I have heard vegeterians say that they dont eat animals because they dont want to kill a living thing. plants are living..
not a stupid arguement, for you to live something must die. and I have heard vegeterians say that they dont eat animals because they dont want to kill a living thing. plants are living..
Did you hear it, or summarize it to yourself that way? If I've ever heard that it was maybe years ago from one of my sister's friends in middle school when she still loved ponies. Maybe you spend your time around imbiciles or maybe you are just creating a straw man to try to be clever. Whatever the case may be, it's a stupid argument.
It takes ten pounds of grain to make one pound of food from cattle. So you can feed ten times as many people with grains as you can with beef.
The gorilla is pound for pound the strongest mammal on the planet. They're vegetarians.
Beans and rice create a better and more complete protein than meat.
My situation is very similar to yours giant. I haven't eaten meat on a regular basis in a long time, but I've been a lot of places and done a lot of things. After years without meat I almost died eating some goat meat in Africa. I was a three day hike from anywhere but my body couldn't handle the stuff. So I try to keep my body from being that deprived in case I end up in a situation where I have to eat meat.
My situation is very similar to yours giant. I haven't eaten meat on a regular basis in a long time, but I've been a lot of places and done a lot of things. After years without meat I almost died eating some goat meat in Africa.
Except what I said *is* true. Some breeds have more aggressive temperaments than others, by design. It was intentional that the Pitbull turned out to be such an aggressive breed.
Combine this with its body-type and that is a pretty risky combination. Like I'd care if a Jack Russell Terrier had the mind of a Pitbull...they actually sort of do...they lack the other features that make the Pitbull a high risk breed.
I own two German Shepherds. I make no ignorant claims about them being as docile as the average Golden Retriever. They just aren't. They are disciplined, but they're naturally very protective of their territory and owners. They will bark at people loitering outside my property gates until I command them to stop.
I'm also not convinced that humans can be totally free of animal products in their diets. From everything that I've heard, no strictly animal-product free diet contains all of the nutrients needed for human health. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at some point you'll need at least traces of animal-derived nutrients or you'll get very ill, if not die. Perhaps someday we'll be able to chemically synthesize these nutrients without the use of animals, but this certainly won't help support the pretense of veganism being "natural".
You're wrong about that. There are no animal products that must be consumed. I've been vegan for too many years to even count now (I think its over 12) and I haven't had any animal products for that long. I also eat about 90% only organic foods. The only time I don't eat organic is when I don't have a choice (friend/relative's house or restaurant). I'm as healthy as I can be and I hardly ever get sick except for the occasionaly cold.
I don't belong to PETA, I don't go to rallies, I don't ever preach to anyone to not eat meat. The only thing that erks me is when people say you "MUST" eat meat to be healthy because this is simply not true.
I really don't have the desire to eat meat and I really don't see why I ever would again. I initially became vegan for animal rights but realized it was a lost cause and now I'd say I do it for two reasos, the first and most important being my own health/well being and the second because I'd rather try and live a life where something that can think, feel and have a family doesn't die for me. So stop comparing plants to animals just because they are "living" organisms. I realize that things have to die for me to live, but if I can keep a few things alive, well than thats all the better.
I really don't give a crap what the rest of you do/eat/kill.
Comments
Morning, carbs in the form of bagel, waffles, cold cereal, or hot cereal, and coffee or juice. Once a week I'll have eggs & bacon too.
Lunch, Sandwiches (tuna, PB&Jam, or deli meats and cheese), sushi, oriental noodle bowl with chicken.
Dinner, this is when I'll have a steak, chicken breast, fish, etc. and vegetables. Maybe rice, potatoes or pasta if I'm iin the mood for carbs that late but usually not.
Originally posted by giant
I think these arguments about needing to eat meat are extremely flawed. If you want to, that's one thing, but to say it's necessary is just stupid.
so in this case, why even eat plants? they are living things, why doesnt everyone just eat pills???
think about that.....
Originally posted by giant
This is total bullshit. Do you even know anyone that does humanitarian work in third world countries? I'm guessing not, or maybe you have a sister that did a three week work camp in cambodia once at the most, since what you are saying is about as contrary to reality as one can get.
Last February I had one family member and another close friend who were helping people in the Ivory Coast. My aunt, who is a nun and has been doing this work for over 25 years, and a college student were both in the Ivory Coast, helping some of the poorest people in the world, build their village which had been destroyed by war, and create a new school for the children. Their trip was documented with pictures, and items which were given to them. Unfortunately, their mission ended early when apparently, mobs of armed rebels, where attacking non-locals in area villages. They were flown out by the UN, without completing their task due to the violence. However, they are planning to return in spring of 2004, to hopefully complete the project.
Originally posted by Powerdoc
My cat passed this night. It was scheduled to shorten his pain today. But now it's unnecessary.
I think it's better this way. He died in his beloved home.
well one of our cats dies a few years ago of kidney disease. she was suffering to much. i was in the room with her when thye gave her the injection. it was very depressing, i cried. so she was with a loved one
Originally posted by The General
so in this case, why even eat plants? they are living things, why doesnt everyone just eat pills???
think about that.....
That's a stupid argument. The papers written regarding animal testing are the best place to look at the distinctions made for personage, etc, and they apply here.
Originally posted by Mac Man 020581
Last February I had one family member and another close friend who were helping people in the Ivory Coast. My aunt, who is a nun and has been doing this work for over 25 years, and a college student were both in the Ivory Coast, helping some of the poorest people in the world, build their village which had been destroyed by war, and create a new school for the children. Their trip was documented with pictures, and items which were given to them. Unfortunately, their mission ended early when apparently, mobs of armed rebels, where attacking non-locals in area villages. They were flown out by the UN, without completing their task due to the violence. However, they are planning to return in spring of 2004, to hopefully complete the project.
Oh I see. You are one of the high and mighty types just because you know people that actually risked it. Well guess what. In my social group and at my work you are the odd one out if you haven't done or continue to do humanitarian work or are significantly involved in international politics and you will find few if any of us condemning other people for working to better the world.
Oh, and cute story. Unfortunately, it's all to common. Don't try to use the real suffering of other humans to justify your stupid, arrogant and ignorant condemnations of people for doing the right thing.
Let's look at what you said again:
Originally posted by Mac Man 020581
I believe, that some people go on these crusades for animal protection, as a method to make themselves feel as if they are doing something to change the world, while knowingly, ignoring the larger more important issues.
Get a clue. And if you are so self righteous about it, go do it yourself rather than using someone else's intense experience to justify condemnation of good people.
Edit: Sorry if this is harsh, but I don't know what else to say to you. Tact is something I've always lacked.
Even the most dedicated vegan has an immune system that kills microorganisms and more complex multicellular parasites. If you're going to chant "A rat is an alligator is cow is a man", then why not add "...is a plasmodium falciparum is a bacillus anthracis"? (Okay, not counting the fact that those words are a lot harder to chant.)
We kill insects and arachnids all of the time, purely by accident or disregard, even when we don't go out of our way to kill them. A lumbering human body, especially one that wields large machinery, can't help but crush tiny lives all of the time. For instance, I've founds moths and spiders crushed in the hinges of doors. We are forced by merely existing to make choices about what organisms will die and which will get our protection. Perhaps there is something noble in trying to expand the circle of protection that we recognize, but that circle can never be inclusive of all life.
Okay, then. Perhaps you only care about what happens to warm, fuzzy or feathery animals, especially the ones humans often consider "cute". You're still imposing your own human standards on what lives and dies, but if it that makes you feel righteous, so be it. You're still not off the hook.
We compete with other animals even if when we aren't directly trying to kill them, and this competition causes death. Every acre of land devoted to human agriculture displaces animals that might have used the resources of that land. Animals die and will continue to die because we starve them in the competition for resources. Is death by starvation particularly humane? Is this killing more acceptable because it is indirect rather than direct? Indirection seems to do a great deal to sooth human consciences, but dead is dead for the animals that starve.
I'm also not convinced that humans can be totally free of animal products in their diets. From everything that I've heard, no strictly animal-product free diet contains all of the nutrients needed for human health. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at some point you'll need at least traces of animal-derived nutrients or you'll get very ill, if not die. Perhaps someday we'll be able to chemically synthesize these nutrients without the use of animals, but this certainly won't help support the pretense of veganism being "natural".
I'm all for reducing meat consumption, both for health and so that we can feed more people more efficiently. I'm all for improving the treatment of animals that are raised for food. Back to the original thread topic, I'm all for not causing animals pain in order to appease stupid human ideas about animal fashion. But I'm also tired of vegetarians and vegans with their blinders up, who don't understand the big picture of the cycle of life and death in which they are firmly embedded along with everyone else.
It's good to add a drop of common sense in this thread.
Originally posted by shetline
Okay, then. Perhaps you only care about what happens to warm, fuzzy or feathery animals, especially the ones humans often consider "cute". You're still imposing your own human standards on what lives and dies, but if it that makes you feel righteous, so be it. You're still not off the hook.
Both this argument and the overall one are not really dealing with the real debate.
First, the one above belittles the real issue: that of suffering, awareness of suffering and where the line resides that determines whether we are morally obligated to a being.
Second, most vegetarians I've known have always been in favor of growing as much of their own food as they can. There are many reasons for this that are not directly related to animals.
Which brings us to the fact that many vegetarians don't stop eating meat simply for the well-being of animals.
The other thing you didn't address is the most common reason for staying away from meat: because it can be fvcking nasty and dirty.
That said, I'm looking forward to a good steak soon.
But I'm also tired of vegetarians and vegans with their blinders up, who don't understand the big picture of the cycle of life and death in which they are firmly embedded along with everyone else.
Stupidity is not a vegitarian problem. It's a people problem.
However, I think you are arguing against a stereotype, which is why I'm not joining in praise.
*APPLAUD*
I want to bear your children.
Originally posted by giant
That's a stupid argument. The papers written regarding animal testing are the best place to look at the distinctions made for personage, etc, and they apply here.
not a stupid arguement, for you to live something must die. and I have heard vegeterians say that they dont eat animals because they dont want to kill a living thing. plants are living..
Originally posted by The General
not a stupid arguement, for you to live something must die. and I have heard vegeterians say that they dont eat animals because they dont want to kill a living thing. plants are living..
Did you hear it, or summarize it to yourself that way? If I've ever heard that it was maybe years ago from one of my sister's friends in middle school when she still loved ponies. Maybe you spend your time around imbiciles or maybe you are just creating a straw man to try to be clever. Whatever the case may be, it's a stupid argument.
And why isn't killing plants the same as animals?
The gorilla is pound for pound the strongest mammal on the planet. They're vegetarians.
Beans and rice create a better and more complete protein than meat.
My situation is very similar to yours giant. I haven't eaten meat on a regular basis in a long time, but I've been a lot of places and done a lot of things. After years without meat I almost died eating some goat meat in Africa. I was a three day hike from anywhere but my body couldn't handle the stuff. So I try to keep my body from being that deprived in case I end up in a situation where I have to eat meat.
My situation is very similar to yours giant. I haven't eaten meat on a regular basis in a long time, but I've been a lot of places and done a lot of things. After years without meat I almost died eating some goat meat in Africa.
was it giant's dick perchance? god, get a life.
Originally posted by FaydRautha
Blame the owners and trainers. Not the dog.
Except what I said *is* true. Some breeds have more aggressive temperaments than others, by design. It was intentional that the Pitbull turned out to be such an aggressive breed.
Combine this with its body-type and that is a pretty risky combination. Like I'd care if a Jack Russell Terrier had the mind of a Pitbull...they actually sort of do...they lack the other features that make the Pitbull a high risk breed.
I own two German Shepherds. I make no ignorant claims about them being as docile as the average Golden Retriever. They just aren't. They are disciplined, but they're naturally very protective of their territory and owners. They will bark at people loitering outside my property gates until I command them to stop.
Originally posted by shetline
I'm also not convinced that humans can be totally free of animal products in their diets. From everything that I've heard, no strictly animal-product free diet contains all of the nutrients needed for human health. Correct me if I'm wrong, but at some point you'll need at least traces of animal-derived nutrients or you'll get very ill, if not die. Perhaps someday we'll be able to chemically synthesize these nutrients without the use of animals, but this certainly won't help support the pretense of veganism being "natural".
You're wrong about that. There are no animal products that must be consumed. I've been vegan for too many years to even count now (I think its over 12) and I haven't had any animal products for that long. I also eat about 90% only organic foods. The only time I don't eat organic is when I don't have a choice (friend/relative's house or restaurant). I'm as healthy as I can be and I hardly ever get sick except for the occasionaly cold.
I don't belong to PETA, I don't go to rallies, I don't ever preach to anyone to not eat meat. The only thing that erks me is when people say you "MUST" eat meat to be healthy because this is simply not true.
I really don't have the desire to eat meat and I really don't see why I ever would again. I initially became vegan for animal rights but realized it was a lost cause and now I'd say I do it for two reasos, the first and most important being my own health/well being and the second because I'd rather try and live a life where something that can think, feel and have a family doesn't die for me. So stop comparing plants to animals just because they are "living" organisms. I realize that things have to die for me to live, but if I can keep a few things alive, well than thats all the better.
I really don't give a crap what the rest of you do/eat/kill.
Maybe mental health if you're spiritual in that way, but...