This is a good point, and something missing in AotC (and Phantom Menace).
Han Solo was a hugely popular character, and part of that is down to the fact he was "human". He didn't have any weird powers, he was cynical, he was heroic. Leia was a similar character. While Luke was prancing about being all deep and at one with the force, Han and Leia got on with shooting baddies and making love.
The only "human" good guy in AotC is Amidala, and most of the life was sucked out of her. She did have her moment during the fight at the arena, though, out-smarting the nasty beasts and riding her chariot.
When I was a kid, all the boys played at being Han Solo, not Luke Skywalker. After Phantom Menace, all the kids in my neighborhood transformed into Darth Maul.
I wouldn't like to guess whether it's because there were no heroes in the movie or whether kids have changed a great deal. Probably both.
And never mind the AotC DVD, we've got Fellowship of the Ring in August and the mighty four hour version in November.
I was ALWAYS a Han Solo guy. Luke was bratty, the droids were annoying, I couldn't understand Chewbacca, Leia was a bit snooty and I wasn't one to root for the bad guys.
Han Solo was the one grounding influence in all that stuff. It was like taking Mr. Blue Collar or whatever and sticking him into a big fancy tea party with Manhattan social butterflies.
He could rag on Obi-Wan and Luke, tweak Threepio, call Leia "Your worship" and so forth...just like any one of us probably would've done, given the chance!
You guys are right...there IS that element missing in these new films. It's all serious mysticism and high politics and decorum. There's no one standing close by with a thigh holster, ready to pop the occasional pompous balloon.
NOT that I'm saying I want Lucas to insert a digital wisecracking smartass in "Episode III". Knowing Lucas (and judging by Jar Jar and Threepio), he's go WAY over the top and be more of an annoyance and distraction.
It's probably too late for this trilogy. Just get on to the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel and show Luke and Leia as kids, being separated and hidden from Vader, and we'll all be happy.
I too witnessed AotC this afternoon. It was worth the $4.75 matinee price, and I think my low expectations helped my experience a lot. The love story was shmaltzy, C3P0 was fine until the big stadium scene, Jar Jar was, um, Jar Jar, Yoda's lightsabre scene was silly (should have left it at throwing big things around) and on the whole it wasn't soooo boring in the first half. It was a good pop-corn and soda (which cost me more than the tickets!) movie on a cloudy Sunday afternoon. The politics are a little more interesting than I thought they would be. The whole question of which side is really the "good" side plays out effectively enough, though it's obvious Palpatine is the Sith Lord (or his clone?) and is working all these people from both sides. And aside from some stilted dialog, I bought the events that are driving Anakin towards the dark side -- how he is losing control of his anger and why. I didn't think Ewan MacGregor's performance was that bad (he gets all the decent one-liners), and Samuel L. Jackson was pretty much himself. It helped to have someone who didn't look like they were squinting at a cue card for their lines.
You know what the biggest problem I have with it is? Too much mecha. In the first three (uh, I mean second three) episodes, there is a very quantifiable number of techie gizmos that you could keep track of, and what they're good and not good at. In the Empire Strikes back, we realize that those AT-Ats are bad-*** killing machines, that one big gun the rebels used to escape Hoth was damn cool, and those little snow speeders are nimble thingies. In this one, there's just one mecha after another, tons at a time so you don't get too absorbed by any of them. None of them are particularly menacing or represent good guys or bad guys the way X-wings and Tie fighters were worn like cowboy hats. I wish I could take more of that kind of thing out of the theater with me.
PS: why does the "elected" Que -- I mean Senator's ship have engine intakes? The thing looked like a cross between the Silver Surfer's board and a Messerschmidt (sp?).
I'm too tired to read all the comments here, but after seeing the film tonight my observations are as follows:
1. Effects were outstanding. In particular the audio effects were really well done.
2. WAY better than Episode I, but still not better than IV thur VI.
3. George Lucas still doesn't know how to Direct. He couldn't even get YODA right for cryin our loud!
4. George Lucas still wouldn't know a good script if it slapped him across the face. Twice.
5. George Lucas has forgotten about that little thing we call subtle plot development. Ep 2 was as jumpy as a monkey on crack. Calm the fvck down and tell the story, George. Don't try to tell us everything all at once. Make Ep 2.5 if you have to - software developers do it all the time!
5.5 Jar Jar was in this Episode for about 10 minutes more than he should've been (hint hint). Also, those stupid trade minister guys were poorly lip-synched to their lines and their Asian-like accents were lousy.
5.7 I wanted to see another Darth Maul type. He was a bad mofo and one of the only reasons I remember Ep 1 at all.
5.9 Lose the beard Obi.
6.0 RC1 - Was Darth Sidius Senator Palpatine? My thought was no because: 1. he seemed to be in one place while Palp-o was in another watching his new army; 2. the voice didn't sound the same (even though the nasal profile seemed like a "match").
6.0 I will be more anxious to own the LotR trilogy on DVD than I will Ep 2-6 (I won't even waste money on Ep 1).
[quote]2. WAY better than Episode I, but still not better than IV thur VI.<hr></blockquote>
Not better than Episode VI?? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
[quote]3. George Lucas still doesn't know how to Direct. He couldn't even get YODA right for cryin our loud!<hr></blockquote>
Yoda's fight scene ruled!
[quote]. George Lucas still wouldn't know a good script if it slapped him across the face. Twice.<hr></blockquote>
Never has... never will.
[quote] Jar Jar was in this Episode for about 10 minutes more than he should've been (hint hint).<hr></blockquote>
Not 10 minutes. More like 3-4 at the most.
Also, those stupid trade minister guys were poorly lip-synched to their lines and their Asian-like accents were lousy.
[quote]Was Darth Sidius Senator Palpatine? My thought was no because: 1. he seemed to be in one place while Palp-o was in another watching his new army; 2. the voice didn't sound the same (even though the nasal profile did).<hr></blockquote>
Everyone seems to assume that Chancellor Palpatine is Darth Sidious is The Emperor.
We don't know just yet, I'm betting that it's not that simple. Could be cloning involved, twins, brothers, a really big coincidence.
Senator Palpatine is at least played by the same actor as Darth Sidious -- they have that unmistakable deeply cleft protruding chin, pale skin with thin red lips. Can't miss it. The amount of travel this one guy did must have been amazing -- two places in a bout the same time. That's why I think the Senator might be a clone.
[quote]Why does everyone think Jedi is so bad? I think its a good movie.<hr></blockquote>
Oh let's see....
The first 30 minutes are just about unbearable. It isn't until they blow up Jabba's big sand vessel that it can even try to not be annoying, and that's 35 minutes into the flick.
I can't stand the Ewoks, they are Jar-Jar's father on the "irritating attempt to sell to kids" tip.
Mark Hammill is as convincing as Jake Lloyd that he's a poewrful Jedi knight.
Han's character was castrated and not as fun as e has in IV & V.
OK - we'll call Ep2 and Ep 6 a draw. They were both lousy in spots I admit.
Regarding Yoda - the fight scene was pretty cool but when he was bouncing off the walls it was ... Mutant Turtles meets The Matrix. It was hilarious actually, even though it wasn't intended to be.
It was like Lucas spoofed of his own idea and didn't even realize it. Directing-wise though I was more talking about the first half of the movie where Yoda basically recites a bunch of old cliches and jabbers back and forth with the Senator, etc. Yoda's at his best when giving guidance one on one or muttering to himself quitely. A socialite he ain't.
Jar Jar was only on for 3 or 4 minutes? It definitely felt like 10.
I don't think Sidius is Palpatine. Related perhaps (father? brother?) but not the same. I never read the books though so what the hell do I know? Also, when Lucas adapts the screenplays from these books - he changes things around a little doesn't he? And what's the deal with the books anyway - were they all ghost written by/for Lucas? I [seemto recall] there are several authors - or am I thinking of something else?
Regarding Yoda - the fight scene was pretty cool but when he was bouncing off the walls it was ... Mutant Turtles meets The Matrix.
....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Remember when the Jedi were in the arena. The all struck a pose before the fight. Reminded me of TMNT. They all went out for space pizza afterward.
<strong>On the whole I thought the dialogue was actualy pretty good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm...
[quote]"We made it. I guess I was wrong, there was no danger at all."<hr></blockquote>
Just before the Naboo ship explodes. The first line of the movie. It goes downhill from thereon in...
I've been sent a copy of the original script. Reading the dialog on the page is truly awful. There are quite a few scenes that have been cut: The chase sequence was a little bit longer, there was a scene where Obi checked the toxic dart with a droid at Jedi HQ before the horrid restaurant scene, and another Anakin nightmare - "No, no, Mom, no..." - was cut from the scenes on board the freighter bound for Naboo.
He also must've missed the part where, in the space of 10 seconds, 3PO said "what a drag" as his head was being dragged behind R2 and "I'm beside myself" when his head was laying next to his body.
And when Yoda said something like "Such tragedy to hear of your ship exploding. How nice to see you it is, Senator." Yoda shouldn't say crap like that! Not in my world anyway - what is he, a Jedi master or the MC at a Whitehouse dinner? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Or when Anikin jumps out of his speeder car, plunges 8000 stories and lands on the other car he's looking for and Obi says "I hate it when he does that", as if he were talking to the audience.
And every pubescent temper tantrum Anikin threw, saying something like "Obi is holding me back. He's jealous! It's just not fair!" What is this, the fvcking Brady Bunch? Shut up Marcia! Pull out your light sabre of love and make the Senator squeel like the royal vixen she is!
And about half of the lines that "Jewels Windu - Jedi master and bad mutha****a" had throughout the movie. Jackson was also very poorly directed in most scenes. Lucas needs to hang up his friggin ego and let someone else work the script and directing (at least for the acting scenes if nothing else - if he wants to direct the visual stuff fine by me).
Doesn't seem like a whole lot of thought it going into the design of all the new ships and vehicles we see. That cargo "thing" they travelled to Naboo on looked so front-heavy that it should've just plunged to the ground and exploded (might've actually improved the story line AFAIC). Not to sound like a Star Trek dork, but clearly a decent amount of gravity exists on these planets so just based on simple physics, that POS ain't goin' anywhere. Looks interesting, and I know it's Sci-fi, but common....
Also, what's with Count Dooku's ship and the Solar Sail thing? I mean that's just stupid. Those kind of craft by definition slowly build up to very high speeds over a long period. If you got technology that lets you push a button and hop across a galaxy, you don't need a friggin solar sail type propulsion system. But hey, it looks cool.
Also, why must there be literally dozens of new species introduced in every new episode? Why must there be say, 20 species of Jedi master in the arena and not 4 or 5? Just stick to the basics, throw in your occasional arena monsters (those were pretty cool and appropriate for the scene) and focus on the story damnit! Every time the camera pans in on a new 3 headed, six lipped alien speaking swahili it tends to distract - which of course is the intention. Distract attention away from the pitiful dialogs and weak plot development with neat-o ships and freakish alien beings.
On the flip side, I though the race of creatures that lived on the ocean and who made the clone army were a much better fit than the rest. And when that one popped out of the ocean on a flying something-or-other - that was a nice touch. Too bad the rest were way overboard.
Ship to ship battle scenes: there's no need for dozens of laser blasts every second. Again, laser overkill distracts from the movements of the craft, the emotion on the actor's faces, etc. That battle in the asteroid field was pretty good but it could've been a lot better if done in a less visually cluttered way.
Those trade minister dorks didn't say one convincing thing the whole time (bad enough they weren't lip-synced right). During the arena scene "Hey, she's not allowed to do that. Can't we shoot her or something?" Uh yah. Once again Lucas forgets these beings don't live in an American sitcom.
Overall though it was a nice visual experience. Too bad all the substance was stuck in some other script-writer's head. I mentioned something last night about the audio effects. One of the things I thought was well done was the sound the various large ships made. They didn't overdue the techy metallic sound you'd expect. Instead (for example) the Senator's transport in the very beginning sounded like a futuristic B-17. Very cool.
The only scene that really had me sticking my finger down my throat was the first time Queenie and Anakin are alone.
He is whining like a total snot-nosed punk and she's packing her freakin' clothes. She hasn't seen this kid for 10 years, has no point of reference and he's whining like a common teen punk to his best friend since grade school.
"Do you mind toning down the whining until I figure out what the hell you're talking about and until I get my clothes packed, thanks."
Comments
Han Solo was a hugely popular character, and part of that is down to the fact he was "human". He didn't have any weird powers, he was cynical, he was heroic. Leia was a similar character. While Luke was prancing about being all deep and at one with the force, Han and Leia got on with shooting baddies and making love.
The only "human" good guy in AotC is Amidala, and most of the life was sucked out of her. She did have her moment during the fight at the arena, though, out-smarting the nasty beasts and riding her chariot.
When I was a kid, all the boys played at being Han Solo, not Luke Skywalker. After Phantom Menace, all the kids in my neighborhood transformed into Darth Maul.
I wouldn't like to guess whether it's because there were no heroes in the movie or whether kids have changed a great deal. Probably both.
And never mind the AotC DVD, we've got Fellowship of the Ring in August and the mighty four hour version in November.
Kids want to be the coolest character, and our whiteboy Jedis have NEVER been the coolest character.
Han Solo was the one grounding influence in all that stuff. It was like taking Mr. Blue Collar or whatever and sticking him into a big fancy tea party with Manhattan social butterflies.
He could rag on Obi-Wan and Luke, tweak Threepio, call Leia "Your worship" and so forth...just like any one of us probably would've done, given the chance!
You guys are right...there IS that element missing in these new films. It's all serious mysticism and high politics and decorum. There's no one standing close by with a thigh holster, ready to pop the occasional pompous balloon.
NOT that I'm saying I want Lucas to insert a digital wisecracking smartass in "Episode III". Knowing Lucas (and judging by Jar Jar and Threepio), he's go WAY over the top and be more of an annoyance and distraction.
It's probably too late for this trilogy. Just get on to the Obi-Wan vs. Anakin duel and show Luke and Leia as kids, being separated and hidden from Vader, and we'll all be happy.
Okay. The Jedi are full of themselves and go around "forcing" people to comply with the Senate. Right? They were unbalanced. They made a big mistake.
So. When Luke trains with Yoda you'd think Yoda would point this out. Right? Yoda should know that the Jedi as a group effed up.
I meant to add that I saw it in digital too. It looked okay.
[ 05-26-2002: Message edited by: scott_h_phd ]</p>
You know what the biggest problem I have with it is? Too much mecha. In the first three (uh, I mean second three) episodes, there is a very quantifiable number of techie gizmos that you could keep track of, and what they're good and not good at. In the Empire Strikes back, we realize that those AT-Ats are bad-*** killing machines, that one big gun the rebels used to escape Hoth was damn cool, and those little snow speeders are nimble thingies. In this one, there's just one mecha after another, tons at a time so you don't get too absorbed by any of them. None of them are particularly menacing or represent good guys or bad guys the way X-wings and Tie fighters were worn like cowboy hats. I wish I could take more of that kind of thing out of the theater with me.
PS: why does the "elected" Que -- I mean Senator's ship have engine intakes? The thing looked like a cross between the Silver Surfer's board and a Messerschmidt (sp?).
Flight Of The Navigator, baby!
I just watched Return of the Jedi... christ that was terrible. It renewed my faith in these last two. Ep I and II are better than Jedi... *shudder*
"Don't underestimate my power." - Mark Hammil
1. Effects were outstanding. In particular the audio effects were really well done.
2. WAY better than Episode I, but still not better than IV thur VI.
3. George Lucas still doesn't know how to Direct. He couldn't even get YODA right for cryin our loud!
4. George Lucas still wouldn't know a good script if it slapped him across the face. Twice.
5. George Lucas has forgotten about that little thing we call subtle plot development. Ep 2 was as jumpy as a monkey on crack. Calm the fvck down and tell the story, George. Don't try to tell us everything all at once. Make Ep 2.5 if you have to - software developers do it all the time!
5.5 Jar Jar was in this Episode for about 10 minutes more than he should've been (hint hint). Also, those stupid trade minister guys were poorly lip-synched to their lines and their Asian-like accents were lousy.
5.7 I wanted to see another Darth Maul type. He was a bad mofo and one of the only reasons I remember Ep 1 at all.
5.9 Lose the beard Obi.
6.0 RC1 - Was Darth Sidius Senator Palpatine? My thought was no because: 1. he seemed to be in one place while Palp-o was in another watching his new army; 2. the voice didn't sound the same (even though the nasal profile seemed like a "match").
6.0 I will be more anxious to own the LotR trilogy on DVD than I will Ep 2-6 (I won't even waste money on Ep 1).
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>
Not better than Episode VI?? <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
[quote]3. George Lucas still doesn't know how to Direct. He couldn't even get YODA right for cryin our loud!<hr></blockquote>
Yoda's fight scene ruled!
[quote]. George Lucas still wouldn't know a good script if it slapped him across the face. Twice.<hr></blockquote>
Never has... never will.
[quote] Jar Jar was in this Episode for about 10 minutes more than he should've been (hint hint).<hr></blockquote>
Not 10 minutes. More like 3-4 at the most.
Also, those stupid trade minister guys were poorly lip-synched to their lines and their Asian-like accents were lousy.
[quote]Was Darth Sidius Senator Palpatine? My thought was no because: 1. he seemed to be in one place while Palp-o was in another watching his new army; 2. the voice didn't sound the same (even though the nasal profile did).<hr></blockquote>
Everyone seems to assume that Chancellor Palpatine is Darth Sidious is The Emperor.
We don't know just yet, I'm betting that it's not that simple. Could be cloning involved, twins, brothers, a really big coincidence.
Obi-Wan has to grow a beard sometime. They'll have to age him further for the next one.
Oh let's see....
The first 30 minutes are just about unbearable. It isn't until they blow up Jabba's big sand vessel that it can even try to not be annoying, and that's 35 minutes into the flick.
I can't stand the Ewoks, they are Jar-Jar's father on the "irritating attempt to sell to kids" tip.
Mark Hammill is as convincing as Jake Lloyd that he's a poewrful Jedi knight.
Han's character was castrated and not as fun as e has in IV & V.
OK - we'll call Ep2 and Ep 6 a draw. They were both lousy in spots I admit.
Regarding Yoda - the fight scene was pretty cool but when he was bouncing off the walls it was ... Mutant Turtles meets The Matrix. It was hilarious actually, even though it wasn't intended to be.
It was like Lucas spoofed of his own idea and didn't even realize it. Directing-wise though I was more talking about the first half of the movie where Yoda basically recites a bunch of old cliches and jabbers back and forth with the Senator, etc. Yoda's at his best when giving guidance one on one or muttering to himself quitely. A socialite he ain't.
Jar Jar was only on for 3 or 4 minutes? It definitely felt like 10.
I don't think Sidius is Palpatine. Related perhaps (father? brother?) but not the same. I never read the books though so what the hell do I know? Also, when Lucas adapts the screenplays from these books - he changes things around a little doesn't he? And what's the deal with the books anyway - were they all ghost written by/for Lucas? I [seemto recall] there are several authors - or am I thinking of something else?
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>
<strong>...
Regarding Yoda - the fight scene was pretty cool but when he was bouncing off the walls it was ... Mutant Turtles meets The Matrix.
....</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly. Remember when the Jedi were in the arena. The all struck a pose before the fight. Reminded me of TMNT. They all went out for space pizza afterward.
Oh and about the dialog.
Written better dialog I could have
"Iv been dieing a little bit each day since you came back into my life."
Other than that line (and "The Sound of Music" scene") the dialogue seemed pretty good, and it wasnt too cheesy.
<strong>On the whole I thought the dialogue was actualy pretty good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hmm...
[quote]"We made it. I guess I was wrong, there was no danger at all."<hr></blockquote>
Just before the Naboo ship explodes. The first line of the movie. It goes downhill from thereon in...
I've been sent a copy of the original script. Reading the dialog on the page is truly awful. There are quite a few scenes that have been cut: The chase sequence was a little bit longer, there was a scene where Obi checked the toxic dart with a droid at Jedi HQ before the horrid restaurant scene, and another Anakin nightmare - "No, no, Mom, no..." - was cut from the scenes on board the freighter bound for Naboo.
And when Yoda said something like "Such tragedy to hear of your ship exploding. How nice to see you it is, Senator." Yoda shouldn't say crap like that! Not in my world anyway - what is he, a Jedi master or the MC at a Whitehouse dinner? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Or when Anikin jumps out of his speeder car, plunges 8000 stories and lands on the other car he's looking for and Obi says "I hate it when he does that", as if he were talking to the audience.
And every pubescent temper tantrum Anikin threw, saying something like "Obi is holding me back. He's jealous! It's just not fair!" What is this, the fvcking Brady Bunch? Shut up Marcia! Pull out your light sabre of love and make the Senator squeel like the royal vixen she is!
And about half of the lines that "Jewels Windu - Jedi master and bad mutha****a" had throughout the movie. Jackson was also very poorly directed in most scenes. Lucas needs to hang up his friggin ego and let someone else work the script and directing (at least for the acting scenes if nothing else - if he wants to direct the visual stuff fine by me).
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>
Doesn't seem like a whole lot of thought it going into the design of all the new ships and vehicles we see. That cargo "thing" they travelled to Naboo on looked so front-heavy that it should've just plunged to the ground and exploded (might've actually improved the story line AFAIC). Not to sound like a Star Trek dork, but clearly a decent amount of gravity exists on these planets so just based on simple physics, that POS ain't goin' anywhere. Looks interesting, and I know it's Sci-fi, but common....
Also, what's with Count Dooku's ship and the Solar Sail thing? I mean that's just stupid. Those kind of craft by definition slowly build up to very high speeds over a long period. If you got technology that lets you push a button and hop across a galaxy, you don't need a friggin solar sail type propulsion system. But hey, it looks cool.
Also, why must there be literally dozens of new species introduced in every new episode? Why must there be say, 20 species of Jedi master in the arena and not 4 or 5? Just stick to the basics, throw in your occasional arena monsters (those were pretty cool and appropriate for the scene) and focus on the story damnit! Every time the camera pans in on a new 3 headed, six lipped alien speaking swahili it tends to distract - which of course is the intention. Distract attention away from the pitiful dialogs and weak plot development with neat-o ships and freakish alien beings.
On the flip side, I though the race of creatures that lived on the ocean and who made the clone army were a much better fit than the rest. And when that one popped out of the ocean on a flying something-or-other - that was a nice touch. Too bad the rest were way overboard.
Ship to ship battle scenes: there's no need for dozens of laser blasts every second. Again, laser overkill distracts from the movements of the craft, the emotion on the actor's faces, etc. That battle in the asteroid field was pretty good but it could've been a lot better if done in a less visually cluttered way.
Those trade minister dorks didn't say one convincing thing the whole time (bad enough they weren't lip-synced right). During the arena scene "Hey, she's not allowed to do that. Can't we shoot her or something?" Uh yah. Once again Lucas forgets these beings don't live in an American sitcom.
Overall though it was a nice visual experience. Too bad all the substance was stuck in some other script-writer's head. I mentioned something last night about the audio effects. One of the things I thought was well done was the sound the various large ships made. They didn't overdue the techy metallic sound you'd expect. Instead (for example) the Senator's transport in the very beginning sounded like a futuristic B-17. Very cool.
He is whining like a total snot-nosed punk and she's packing her freakin' clothes. She hasn't seen this kid for 10 years, has no point of reference and he's whining like a common teen punk to his best friend since grade school.
"Do you mind toning down the whining until I figure out what the hell you're talking about and until I get my clothes packed, thanks."