Good point. Also because Sony takes something like a 250-300 hit on each PS3.
The PS3's highest cost components (drive, and processor) have gone way down since it's introduction. I don't think the hit is anywhere near that big anymore.
The PS3's highest cost components (drive, and processor) have gone way down since it's introduction. I don't think the hit is anywhere near that big anymore.
Totally agree. If anything I'd say they are nearing profit per machine at this stage. There's also 350 new PS3 games coming out by March 08. 200 on shelves and 150 on the network.
Because Sony subsidises the high component cost of PS3 though sales/licensing of games.
So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?
Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599.
Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.
So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?
Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599.
Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.
Vinea
I don't think the current aTV spec has the horsepower to manage 1080p/24 source media. It would require more advanced parts....... at minimum...
1) core2duo cpu
2) nvida 8600 video
more $$ to build on top of $299+$200 (BD/HD drive)...... which is basically a Macmini on steroid.
I don't think the current aTV spec has the horsepower to manage 1080p/24 source media. It would require more advanced parts....... at minimum...
1) core2duo cpu
2) nvida 8600 video
more $$ to build on top of $299+$200 (BD/HD drive)...... which is basically a Macmini on steroid.
I thought the Toshiba DVD player was a 2.5Ghz P4M with a Broadcom BCM7411D?
The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.
I would hope that by now there is a lower cost Broadcom or other SOC that can do decoding with lower CPU loading. The BCM7440 SOC does BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD even though mostly its associated with HD-DVD.
They sure as heck aren't shipping a Core 2 Duo + 8600 in the $460 Samsung BDP1200.
I thought the Toshiba DVD player was a 2.5Ghz P4M with a Broadcom BCM7411D?
The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.
I would hope that by now there is a lower cost Broadcom or other SOC that can do decoding with lower CPU loading. The BCM7440 SOC does BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD even though mostly its associated with HD-DVD.
Vinea
Well, toshiba HD-DVD player has it's own video & audio designated circuitry other than the 2.5GHz Mobile P4 cpu runing the OS.
When/if aTV uses BCM7440 along with designated audio processor can/may work with current PentiumM with 1GB of ram.
Adding extra circuitry may or may not cost as much as having C2D + Nvidia 8600, but would still cost more.
I'd still pick Macmini on steriod over the aTV with a optical drive.
Quote:
They sure as heck aren't shipping a Core 2 Duo + 8600 in the $460 Samsung BDP1200.
If they did, then all those Standalone HiDef players would run MacOS X and iTunes like aTV..... would probably cost a lot more to make, too.
So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player?
Yes it is. Sony make a loss (or until very recently have been making a loss).
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599
aTV = $299
standalone BR drive = $999
(admittedly this is a burner but I can't find the cost of any raw players)
= $1298 total
PS3 = $450
aTV = $299
= $849 total
An aTV and a standalone BR drive costs more than an aTV and a PS3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.
PS3 doesn't use a Standard Height burner and nor would aTV. I'm sure the prices will continue to drop and soon my statement will cease to be true.
A Blu-ray combo drive only costs less than $299 retail or maybe less than $150 OEM. It can read BR discs and can write to DVD at 12x and to CD at 24x. Add that to an Apple TV as an optional extra for $200 or so. Here's why it'd be good to have:
You should be able to download movie rentals from iTunes one day soon, I hope, and you should be able to rent and buy movies from Apple TV without going to your Mac first. Movies that you download you should be able to burn to DVD. The HD in the Apple TV can hold the movies that are rented and the movies you buy. If there's a DVD burner onboard, you could burn to DVD right from your Apple Remote using the new Apple TV.
This just seems like a logical upgrade that'd greatly improve lagging Apple TV sales. I hope Apple announces movie rentals this fall. If that happens, Apple TV sales should take off, especially if it has a Blu-ray combo drive.
A Blu-ray combo drive only costs less than $299 retail or maybe less than $150 OEM. It can read BR discs and can write to DVD at 12x and to CD at 24x. Add that to an Apple TV as an optional extra for $200 or so. Here's why it'd be good to have:
You should be able to download movie rentals from iTunes one day soon, I hope, and you should be able to rent and buy movies from Apple TV without going to your Mac first. Movies that you download you should be able to burn to DVD. The HD in the Apple TV can hold the movies that are rented and the movies you buy. If there's a DVD burner onboard, you could burn to DVD right from your Apple Remote using the new Apple TV.
This just seems like a logical upgrade that'd greatly improve lagging Apple TV sales. I hope Apple announces movie rentals this fall. If that happens, Apple TV sales should take off, especially if it has a Blu-ray combo drive.
Show me where I can get a combo blu ray drive for that little.
Yes it is. Sony make a loss (or until very recently have been making a loss).
aTV = $299
standalone BR drive = $999
(admittedly this is a burner but I can't find the cost of any raw players)
= $1298 total
So you're saying that the internal BR drive in the PS3 costs MORE than $450 despite the fact that iSuppli says it costs $125? Riiiight.
There's no bleeding way the OEM cost for the BR drive in the PS3 exceeds $450. Because then, not only is the BR drive price subsidized but you're paying ZERO for the CPU, the GPU, memory, HDD, controller, PS2 chip, case, connectors, EVERYTHING.
So instead of losing $306 per unit they're losing $750+ per unit.
Quote:
PS3 doesn't use a Standard Height burner and nor would aTV. I'm sure the prices will continue to drop and soon my statement will cease to be true.
The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.
Yes. Pure encode/decode/compression jobs were pretty much the only thing where Netburst was competetive with AMD offerings.
According to specs, the AppleTV can currently play 720p @ 24 fps. While Apple may be able to push it to 720p @ 30 fps, there's no way you're getting 1080i or 1080p at even 24 fps, much less full BR framerate of 60 fps.
Sony didn't need to make a profit on the PS3 initially. Games sales and the future success of Blu-Ray is the long-term goal and will make up for it. Very similar to the loss-leader principle.
I will conceed that I am surprised at the low cost of the Blu-ray slot-loading player. At that price it should be an option on the iMacs! ;-)
If Sony is only losing $240 on the PS3 there is no way the BR drive costs Sony $499. Unless you think the rest of the console only costs $240 to make.
Oh...amazingly enough the author of this article (and iSuppli) doesn't make such a stupid claim. They claim the BR drive costs Sony $125. So much for this reference...did you even read it?
Are you even reading what I write? Because it sure doesn't seem like it when I use the same $125 estimated cost to refute what you say.
Sony didn't need to make a profit on the PS3 initially. Games sales and the future success of Blu-Ray is the long-term goal and will make up for it. Very similar to the loss-leader principle.
I will conceed that I am surprised at the low cost of the Blu-ray slot-loading player. At that price it should be an option on the iMacs! ;-)
WTF? I never said that Sony wasn't losing money on the PS3. Just that the assumption that a bare BR drive costs $999 is wrong so the conclusion that adding a BR drive to the aTV MUST result in a unit price of $1000 or more is wrong...with the caveat that you don't mind a full height drive.
Go back and read the thread. I spelled it out COMPLETELY for you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea
So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?
Vinea
PS If Sony isn't using a full height drive even better although the aTV should have a BR burner IMHO if it is to have an optical drive at all. it didn't seem that slim in the teardowns but I didn't look that close.
So whats going on with the Apple TV, any new developments...
Well it's getting direct iTunes store connectivity, with a custom designed iTunes UI that will work with the Apple remote. I say this not cause I know anything about it in fact, but because it's obvious. What Apple really needs to do is do a whole iPTV thing, where people can actually subscribe to iTunes and watch watch any TV show in the store, so they could dump their cable box, and truly pick their own programming. I still believe in the slot-load drive too, and I also still believe in the Apple television with Apple TV built inside. We'll see how it pans out though.
I still believe in the slot-load drive too, and I also still believe in the Apple television with Apple TV built inside. We'll see how it pans out though.
So you're telling me you don't see Apple making TV's in the next few years? I think it's just an obvious progression towards the company Apple wants to become. I'd bet money on the TV thing.
Comments
Good point. Also because Sony takes something like a 250-300 hit on each PS3.
The PS3's highest cost components (drive, and processor) have gone way down since it's introduction. I don't think the hit is anywhere near that big anymore.
The PS3's highest cost components (drive, and processor) have gone way down since it's introduction. I don't think the hit is anywhere near that big anymore.
Totally agree. If anything I'd say they are nearing profit per machine at this stage. There's also 350 new PS3 games coming out by March 08. 200 on shelves and 150 on the network.
Because Sony subsidises the high component cost of PS3 though sales/licensing of games.
So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?
Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599.
Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.
Vinea
So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?
Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599.
Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.
Vinea
I don't think the current aTV spec has the horsepower to manage 1080p/24 source media. It would require more advanced parts....... at minimum...
1) core2duo cpu
2) nvida 8600 video
more $$ to build on top of $299+$200 (BD/HD drive)...... which is basically a Macmini on steroid.
I don't think the current aTV spec has the horsepower to manage 1080p/24 source media. It would require more advanced parts....... at minimum...
1) core2duo cpu
2) nvida 8600 video
more $$ to build on top of $299+$200 (BD/HD drive)...... which is basically a Macmini on steroid.
I thought the Toshiba DVD player was a 2.5Ghz P4M with a Broadcom BCM7411D?
The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.
I would hope that by now there is a lower cost Broadcom or other SOC that can do decoding with lower CPU loading. The BCM7440 SOC does BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD even though mostly its associated with HD-DVD.
They sure as heck aren't shipping a Core 2 Duo + 8600 in the $460 Samsung BDP1200.
Vinea
I thought the Toshiba DVD player was a 2.5Ghz P4M with a Broadcom BCM7411D?
The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.
I would hope that by now there is a lower cost Broadcom or other SOC that can do decoding with lower CPU loading. The BCM7440 SOC does BOTH Blu-Ray and HD-DVD even though mostly its associated with HD-DVD.
Vinea
Well, toshiba HD-DVD player has it's own video & audio designated circuitry other than the 2.5GHz Mobile P4 cpu runing the OS.
When/if aTV uses BCM7440 along with designated audio processor can/may work with current PentiumM with 1GB of ram.
Adding extra circuitry may or may not cost as much as having C2D + Nvidia 8600, but would still cost more.
I'd still pick Macmini on steriod over the aTV with a optical drive.
They sure as heck aren't shipping a Core 2 Duo + 8600 in the $460 Samsung BDP1200.
If they did, then all those Standalone HiDef players would run MacOS X and iTunes like aTV..... would probably cost a lot more to make, too.
Brendan, address some of the questions and suggestions put to you please.
I don't have time right now Walter, later.
Still waiting
So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player?
Yes it is. Sony make a loss (or until very recently have been making a loss).
Again, why would a aTV with BR reader cost more than a aTV AND a PS3 (aka $1000). $299 + $599
aTV = $299
standalone BR drive = $999
(admittedly this is a burner but I can't find the cost of any raw players)
= $1298 total
PS3 = $450
aTV = $299
= $849 total
An aTV and a standalone BR drive costs more than an aTV and a PS3.
Answer. It doesn't. With a standard height BR burner the cost is $699 retail. Slimline drives dropping in price as well as more and more notebook makers are including them (like Dell). By this christmas I would expect the BTO price on slimline BR to drop below $500 from Dell from $650 today.
PS3 doesn't use a Standard Height burner and nor would aTV. I'm sure the prices will continue to drop and soon my statement will cease to be true.
References:
http://store.fastmac.com/product_inf...roducts_id=195
http://stores.channeladvisor.com/blu...itemid=4359657
You should be able to download movie rentals from iTunes one day soon, I hope, and you should be able to rent and buy movies from Apple TV without going to your Mac first. Movies that you download you should be able to burn to DVD. The HD in the Apple TV can hold the movies that are rented and the movies you buy. If there's a DVD burner onboard, you could burn to DVD right from your Apple Remote using the new Apple TV.
This just seems like a logical upgrade that'd greatly improve lagging Apple TV sales. I hope Apple announces movie rentals this fall. If that happens, Apple TV sales should take off, especially if it has a Blu-ray combo drive.
A Blu-ray combo drive only costs less than $299 retail or maybe less than $150 OEM. It can read BR discs and can write to DVD at 12x and to CD at 24x. Add that to an Apple TV as an optional extra for $200 or so. Here's why it'd be good to have:
You should be able to download movie rentals from iTunes one day soon, I hope, and you should be able to rent and buy movies from Apple TV without going to your Mac first. Movies that you download you should be able to burn to DVD. The HD in the Apple TV can hold the movies that are rented and the movies you buy. If there's a DVD burner onboard, you could burn to DVD right from your Apple Remote using the new Apple TV.
This just seems like a logical upgrade that'd greatly improve lagging Apple TV sales. I hope Apple announces movie rentals this fall. If that happens, Apple TV sales should take off, especially if it has a Blu-ray combo drive.
Show me where I can get a combo blu ray drive for that little.
Yes it is. Sony make a loss (or until very recently have been making a loss).
aTV = $299
standalone BR drive = $999
(admittedly this is a burner but I can't find the cost of any raw players)
= $1298 total
So you're saying that the internal BR drive in the PS3 costs MORE than $450 despite the fact that iSuppli says it costs $125? Riiiight.
There's no bleeding way the OEM cost for the BR drive in the PS3 exceeds $450. Because then, not only is the BR drive price subsidized but you're paying ZERO for the CPU, the GPU, memory, HDD, controller, PS2 chip, case, connectors, EVERYTHING.
So instead of losing $306 per unit they're losing $750+ per unit.
PS3 doesn't use a Standard Height burner and nor would aTV. I'm sure the prices will continue to drop and soon my statement will cease to be true.
Your statement was wrong the moment you wrote it.
Vinea
Show me where I can get a combo blu ray drive for that little.
Google for Pioneer BDC-2202A. Should run you $299.95 most places.
Contact Pioneer for qty 1000.
Vinea
The aTV has a 1Ghz Pentium M and a 7300. Based on the old rules of thumb the 1Ghz M is around the performance of a 2Ghz P4M though maybe not in this case. Was video decode netburst friendly? I forget now.
Yes. Pure encode/decode/compression jobs were pretty much the only thing where Netburst was competetive with AMD offerings.
Your statement was wrong the moment you wrote it.
Vinea
The first three references to back-up my statement (there are many more).
- http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybe...loss_is_a.html
- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05...plus_forecast/
- http://www.betanews.com/article/Play...old/1163688668
Sony didn't need to make a profit on the PS3 initially. Games sales and the future success of Blu-Ray is the long-term goal and will make up for it. Very similar to the loss-leader principle.
I will conceed that I am surprised at the low cost of the Blu-ray slot-loading player. At that price it should be an option on the iMacs! ;-)
The first three references to back-up my statement (there are many more).
- http://blogs.business2.com/utilitybe...loss_is_a.html
If Sony is only losing $240 on the PS3 there is no way the BR drive costs Sony $499. Unless you think the rest of the console only costs $240 to make.
Oh...amazingly enough the author of this article (and iSuppli) doesn't make such a stupid claim. They claim the BR drive costs Sony $125. So much for this reference...did you even read it?
Are you even reading what I write? Because it sure doesn't seem like it when I use the same $125 estimated cost to refute what you say.
- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05...plus_forecast/
This says Sony was losing money on the PS3. Sure given they were losing more than $200 per unit at the beginning.
- http://www.betanews.com/article/Play...old/1163688668
Same as #1. BR drive costs Sony $125.
Sony didn't need to make a profit on the PS3 initially. Games sales and the future success of Blu-Ray is the long-term goal and will make up for it. Very similar to the loss-leader principle.
I will conceed that I am surprised at the low cost of the Blu-ray slot-loading player. At that price it should be an option on the iMacs! ;-)
WTF? I never said that Sony wasn't losing money on the PS3. Just that the assumption that a bare BR drive costs $999 is wrong so the conclusion that adding a BR drive to the aTV MUST result in a unit price of $1000 or more is wrong...with the caveat that you don't mind a full height drive.
Go back and read the thread. I spelled it out COMPLETELY for you.
So you're saying that the cost of the BR drive by itself is greater than the retail cost of the PS3 player? Or that you failed to read the statement?
Vinea
PS If Sony isn't using a full height drive even better although the aTV should have a BR burner IMHO if it is to have an optical drive at all. it didn't seem that slim in the teardowns but I didn't look that close.
So whats going on with the Apple TV, any new developments...
Well it's getting direct iTunes store connectivity, with a custom designed iTunes UI that will work with the Apple remote. I say this not cause I know anything about it in fact, but because it's obvious. What Apple really needs to do is do a whole iPTV thing, where people can actually subscribe to iTunes and watch watch any TV show in the store, so they could dump their cable box, and truly pick their own programming. I still believe in the slot-load drive too, and I also still believe in the Apple television with Apple TV built inside. We'll see how it pans out though.
I still believe in the slot-load drive too, and I also still believe in the Apple television with Apple TV built inside. We'll see how it pans out though.
Dreamer!
keep dreaming is good for you!
Dreamer!
keep dreaming is good for you!
So you're telling me you don't see Apple making TV's in the next few years? I think it's just an obvious progression towards the company Apple wants to become. I'd bet money on the TV thing.